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Becoming Whole
Relationships and sexuality are areas of life that can be beautiful or confusing, life-giving, or painful. Becoming Whole is a conversational podcast for men, women, and families seeking to draw nearer to Jesus as they navigate topics like sexual integrity, relational healing, spiritual health, and so much more.
Becoming Whole
Meeting Jesus in our wounds
Healing from shame and trauma begins with being seen and known in a safe environment. We discuss the courage it takes to share our wounds, even when it feels uncomfortable and fearful. By drawing parallels to the Japanese art of Kintsugi, we highlight the inherent beauty in our scars and the transformative power of re-narrating our painful experiences with compassion. Discover how Jesus’ gentle, patient presence can help reframe our narratives, combat self-contempt, and bring about inner healing. Through inner healing prayer and seeking Jesus' perspective, we can begin to see our stories in a new light, filled with hope and redemption.
Awaken Mens' Retreat - Are you ready to take your recovery to the next level? Regeneration is Excited to announce our First-Ever Awaken Men’s Retreat. We have crafted a two-day retreat at the beautiful Bon Secours Retreat and Conference Center in Marriottsville, Maryland from Saturday, September 28 to Sunday, September 29. Secure your spot today! We are currently offering an early-bird sale price and this event is open to just 20 attendees. For more information and to register click here.
Wives Betrayal Basics Webinar - For more information and to register.
Sacred By Design Women's Retreat - Are you a woman who loves Jesus & and you're doing the hard work to break free from unwanted sexual behaviors?
We would be honored for you to join us for our first Sacred by Design Retreat to be held on Saturday, November 2, 2024. This special time has been crafted for you to receive and relax, to create and connect. We pray you’ll join us as we slow down long enough to be caught up by our Creator.
Only 10 spots are available. For more information and to register click here.
Welcome to Becoming Whole. This is James Craig, spiritual Coach and Awakened Coordinator here at Regen. As we've been saying every week for the last couple weeks, the month of August, on Becoming Whole, I'm talking with some of my incredible colleagues about some of the topics that we're going to cover at our upcoming Awakened Retreat for Men in September and our Sacred by Design Retreat for Women in November. So today I have my esteemed colleague Dan Kiefer on the show. He's an influencer. You can just tell by his mic setup. He just looks like he's got his ring light, he's got his puffy mic. But Dan has been in this field actually for about 15 years of helping people overcome their unwanted sexual behavior. Dan actually he's back on our team, but he had a stint of about five years in the late teens of the 2000s with us as a group leader, as a spiritual coach. So, Dan, I'm just so grateful that you're on Becoming Whole today.
Speaker 2:It's good to be with you, good to be back.
Speaker 1:Dan actually has been on our podcast before, so hopefully, if you want more of Dan, you can look it up on your podcast app. But, dan, last week I spoke with Andrea about one of the most standout features of our conversation was this idea of meeting with Jesus in this restful posture, engaging his beauty even where there's brokenness, even, maybe especially, where there's wounds. She has this great line.
Speaker 1:Andrea is great at thinking of these like alliterations, right? She's like am I going to enter the porch to talk to my fantasy with the rifle or with the rocking chair? Am I basically going to be combative or am I going to be curious and kind of resting in Jesus? And so, you know, a big theme of especially our Awaken Retreat, but also Sacred by Design, is not only uncovering wounds and talking about fantasy stuff, but also the fact that Jesus meets us in our wounds. And so, dan, I'm just curious, as we start out this conversation today what do you think about this idea? How have you actually maybe seen in your own life or in clients' lives, you know Jesus meeting us in our wounds?
Speaker 2:Well, I think one of the significant ways we see that is not only can we meet Jesus with our wounds or in our wounds, but he first meets with us and is not afraid to show his wounds. If you recall the story of Thomas who was questioning whether Jesus really had risen from the dead or not, jesus did appear to him and quite freely said please take a look, see where they pierced my wrist, where they pierced my feet and where they pierced my side. And there's a picture that I saw recently where it's an illustration of Jesus showing his side and Thomas is actually reaching and placing his finger into Jesus's wound. So Jesus, the perfect son of God, is not afraid for his wounds to be seen. And in fact then he turns to us and says please feel free to make your wounds known to me. There's nothing to be afraid of.
Speaker 1:You know, one of the things we talked about in Awaken, the recovery group that you used to lead and that I currently am at the helm of, is this idea of pressing our wounds into Jesus' wounds. I've noticed some guys really connect with that, but a lot of guys are kind of confused about that wounds. I've noticed some guys really connect with that, but a lot of guys are kind of confused about that, and I think that some of the influence of that writing is from Theology of the Body Institute, where several of us have received training on this beautiful concept from Pope John Paul II of how our bodies point to God, how our bodies actually tell the story of God. So I don't know if have you ever encountered that kind of question of like how do I actually connect my wounds with Jesus's wounds? How does he meet us there?
Speaker 2:That image that you brought up is one that when I first became aware of that myself, it just kind of blew my mind, because so often there's these things in life and we call them wounds and while they may not have the physical signs of those wounds, they're deep and they're emotional, they're relational and they're spiritual and and some of them may even show up physically. I mean, I could point to scars just on my head and tell stories about being bitten by a dog when I was five years old and getting hit in the head with a rock and and other stories. So our wounds have stories. Some of them are kind of amusing and in many instances that they're they're not amusing at all.
Speaker 2:But this idea that we could actually visually take a wound and press it into Jesus's side means that Jesus is taking it into himself and as he takes it into himself, it means that as a person I don't need to carry that any longer. There still may be signs of that wound, but I'm not bearing the weight of that wound any longer and instead Jesus is the one that is bearing the weight and that's what he desires. He invites us to come and to press our wounds into his side and even another way that I visualize it is, you know, kind of like putting it on his shoulders. It's like okay, jesus, this is for you to carry and not for me to carry any longer.
Speaker 1:It makes me think of also that Matthew 11, that famous passage. Right Of, take my yoke upon you, for I'm gentle and humble in heart and you know it's just making me think of so many of us, even in the name of Jesus, in the name of maybe Christianity or, you know, religion, have kind of been taught the opposite, or or taught with the opposite spirit that, like God, with our wounds and particularly with maybe some of the behaviors that are connected to the wounds, is going to reject us Like don't go to him. Look at how messed up you are, or I am, or whatever. What you're saying sounds a lot like the opposite of that mindset.
Speaker 2:It is the complete opposite and rather than being put off by our wounds, he welcomes them.
Speaker 2:But I think, even before he kind of identifies or would even address our wounds, he's just grateful that we are turning to him, that we're coming to him.
Speaker 2:He would rather encounter me for who I am and for those listening, he'd rather encounter who you are than focus on what you do or what you've done or even what was done to you. And it's like that son that returned home after blowing his inheritance and he comes back planning to essentially grovel before his dad saying he's not worthy to be called his son. But the father, when the son was a long way off, he saw him and ran to him. He wasn't thinking you know, when I get up to him he's going to have tattered clothes, he's probably going to smell, he's probably going to just be kind of off-putting. No, that wasn't even on his mind. He ran to him and embraced him and I think that's that picture that we have of Jesus even approaching us that he would come to us just because of who we are and would not be focusing or giving his specific attention to what we've done or what we've had done to us.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it feels like a lot of the time in my own life I can see ways that I feel like Jesus, or at least people who maybe represent Jesus or, you know, whatever I'm in relationship with would rather see well, this cleaned up mask type thing rather than the wounds. And so there's something interesting about you saying Jesus is drawn, like Jesus didn't come for the healthy but for the sick. He didn't come, you know, and it makes me think too of the Pharisees who they kind of hit behind at times, these religious masks, like look at how I'm doing everything to the T, but they're missing the fact that Jesus wants to meet them in those. You know, he calls them whitewashed tombs. Like, in one sense he's very much, you know, kind of, you know, coming at them and calling them out, but on another sense, like Jesus comes for the dead, he comes for those in the tombs, right, but he doesn't, he's not going to polish more of the whitewash on the tomb. That's the image that's coming to my mind as you're saying that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we don't have to come polished. As we were prepping our time, something came to mind, and probably some of our listeners are familiar with the japanese art, kintsugi, which I think I'm saying I think we talked about that even last week with andrea.
Speaker 1:She loves, she loves that and and it's.
Speaker 2:It's a beautiful concept where, rather than try to hide where the cracks are, which are in our north american culture maybe it's a western culture that we're so inclined to do the the Japanese have chosen to highlight it with gold, and it creates a beautiful piece of art. One place that I'm familiar with that has that sitting on an end table in a counseling room, and I think it's just a powerful reminder that the intent is not that we continue to walk around wounded, but that the wounds are healed, and that we don't try to run from them, but that we can even highlight them and identify them, as this is the place, or a place where Jesus met me and brought a healing to me that I couldn't have imagined happening apart from him.
Speaker 1:The enemy attacks us so often in the place that God most holds dear, or beautiful, or even specific to our calling. Like I don't want to necessarily say all the time your deepest challenge becomes your greatest ministry, because sometimes we can be in that performance mode, with that mindset right Like, oh, I overcame this, I need to be in ministry for it. But there is something to the fact that so often the enemy, even in childhood, is coming after these precious places, sexuality being one of the top, in part because he wants to kind of cut off some of the beauty. So, as god is redeeming different wounds or coming into them or engaging with us in them, it's actually unlocking some of who we were made to be, maybe most fundamentally even.
Speaker 2:So it's interesting you're bringing this up, because this is leading into something that you and I didn't talk about but I had in my mind to share.
Speaker 2:When I was in my early 20s, I went through a profound wounding relationship that left a mark on me that I still carry to this day, and it's also helped prepare me to sit with others in the midst of their wounds, in the midst of their pain, to be a source of hope and healing and comfort.
Speaker 2:And so during that time I came across 2 Corinthians 1, specifically verses 3 through 7, in which Paul writes he says that God is the father of all comfort, who comforts us in all our troubles and so, I use a little liberty, I would say troubles could also be wounds who comforts us, who meets us in all our wounds so that we can then comfort or be present with other people in their troubles or in their wounds. And so that gets at exactly what you're saying that when we've been comforted, what a byproduct of that may be, is God preparing us to come alongside others and comfort them, to bear witness to their wounds. Others and comfort them to bear witness to their wounds, and in bearing witness, we are in a position to be used by God to help bring about a healing in that part of their life.
Speaker 1:And you know, especially with sexuality like you just went through the theology of the body training recently, and I don't know if Christopher West says this specifically or not but sexuality is fundamentally about, on some level, creation and connection. And so there's something about, again, the way that the enemy comes after us, the way our brokenness seeks to define us with this idea that he wants to cut off connection with others. Most fundamental thing that we need in this life is it's not good for a man to be alone. And that wasn't just about Adam getting a wife, that was about God saying even with me, I want to provide people to be around you.
Speaker 1:So connection is so crucial and this idea of creativity, whether it is biological life that you're creating or whether it's Kintsugi or any number of things, god so desires to work through our sexuality in the broad sense in those two ways. And when you know the enemy co-ops us through wounds, when we've kind of agreed and signed on to, you know the ways that we cope with our wounds. So often those two most fundamental things about what it means to be human creation and connection are being stagnant, they're being dormant, they're shut down.
Speaker 2:And so often with Jesus, what we're invited into is this experience of connection, because we're choosing not to hide our wounds, we're choosing to make them visible to him, we're choosing to invite him into those places. And as we do that, there's also something that's created out of that. It's not another literal physical life, but when we have the experience of being seen, feeling safe and feeling secure with someone, that's what we can experience with Jesus as he sees us, as he comforts us in our wounds. As we do that, there's something that's created out of that. It's generative. There's a life that's created in us, because when we know that our wounds have been seen and received and not shunned, not pushed away, that just bursts something inside. I mean even it makes us sit up, makes us pay attention, it brings something to us. That remaining in that wounded state where the deceiver wants us to stay, that there is no life to be found there, it's anti-life. You know, that's where we find suffering and pain.
Speaker 1:I think the number one thing that'll keep some of the men or women from coming to our retreats this fall besides, you know logistics or it just doesn't make sense is the same thing that would keep us from healing or connecting with Jesus, and that would be shame or, relatedly, this idea of self-contempt. I've heard it said before that shame is like relationship repellent. It's like this anti-relational thing, this anti-connection force in our lives, and so I'm just curious how have you seen, dan, in your own life, but also in the lives of the men you work with like this idea of shame keeping us from this process of connecting our wounds to Jesus and save others?
Speaker 2:Well, it's interesting because I had that very conversation with someone who was thinking about attending a group or one of the retreats and had some concern with that, and now this individual knows that that's also something that that's really significant and important is to be seen by others. And so, yes, I've seen that in group settings, where you have an individual who is really reluctant to share, or they're almost overwhelmed by the sharing that the others provide, what they tell about themselves and they think I can never do that, I can never be that vulnerable, and my response is always to say it's okay, it's completely understandable that you would feel that way, but just give yourself some time, be patient with yourself. You may get to that place, and so it's not about rushing someone to disclose their wounds before they're ready to do that. Now, is a person ever 100% ready to do that? Maybe not. There's always going to be some discomfort. There's going to be some discomfort, there's going to be some fear associated with that.
Speaker 2:But being with someone and encouraging them to do so in a place that you know is safe will lead to that experience of being seen, and that will be the combatant to shame, because one of the things that in our shame states that we believe is that no one would ever love me or accept me if they knew, and fill in the blank, whatever that thing may be, that creates that experience of shame.
Speaker 2:But when we find ourselves being known, being seen, and we experience safety and security in that, it completely reverses the impact of the wound and we are really on that healing process. Again, there still may be signs of that wound, whether it's a physical scar or an emotional scar. To communicate our wound and have others meet us in that, to have Jesus meet us in that, doesn't mean it ceases to have impact on us or we look at it and say, well, that no longer affects me. I think what it does mean is the weight, the self-contempt, the self-judgment that comes in, that. Those are the things that begin to shift, so that we might even be able to look at our wound like that Japanese art of Kintsugi and say, yeah, that's it. There's cracks, but there's beauty as well.
Speaker 1:Part of that is also not agreeing with rejection of self, Because I think part of what we're often doing with our shame is like they're going to reject me just like I've felt rejected in the past. So I'm going to reject myself preemptively.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's preemptive self-rejection, that's that's, that's powerful. And when we do that, you know even being able to just sit back and think okay, whose hand am I playing into with that? If I'm doing preemptive self-rejection or self-negation, we're playing into the deceiver's hands, and that's the opposite of what Jesus invites us into, and in that it's not like Jesus would be present with us saying like, oh, good grief, can't you get over that? Like, just do what you need to do. You know, come to me, and Jesus is gentle with us, even in that state, when we're listening more to the deceiver, to the one who is not about speaking life. Jesus is patient with us in that and he's not going to push us. He's not going to rush us. I've heard it said that the Holy Spirit's a gentleman and he is that way.
Speaker 1:He's not going to force something upon us. I've also heard that a huge part of trauma isn't just what's happened to us, it's the lack of being cared for in that place of what happened. So if I think there's a story somewhere and uh, man, I wish I remembered my sources better but there's a story of a son ending up his mom, you know, is playing with him. She ends up in the hospital while playing, you know, gets injured while playing. He's feeling overwhelmed I hurt mommy or I caused this or whatever and says son, this is not your fault, you're loved. And it's kind of re-narrating the story, kind of re yeah, just re-narrating what's happened and giving him a new re re-patterning, I think, is another word I'm looking for giving him a new way to look at it. That can actually kind of heal up some of the trauma before it actually solidifies.
Speaker 2:I think you're absolutely right there, and it is creating a new narrative. You know, particularly as a child, a child will fill in the spaces where he or she has not been told a different story, and as an adult we may look at that and say, well, that doesn't seem reasonable or logical. But as an adult, we need to remember what would it be like to be a five-year-old, to be an eight-year-old, 10-year-old, 16-year-old, and even as adults. If we have something happen to us that's wounding, if we don't receive another, say, story to tell ourselves a new narrative, a different narrative to tell ourselves, we may possibly believe the worst, and that is what is going to lead then to the shame and the self-contempt.
Speaker 2:I'm responsible for the wound that I received. Well, wait, what is another possible story and I think at the men's retreat, and probably the women's as well, that that'll be part of what's being explored is like what is another possible narrative? And even when I work with people individually, it's me throwing that out with curiosity. Well, I wonder if there's another possible explanation to this or another story that you could write. What might that be? And even in presenting that, that can then provide a glimmer of hope. And then the power and the intensity of shame and self-contempt can begin to be turned down a bit. And that's the space of inviting Jesus into that and even saying Jesus, what's another story here? Because if we can't come up with it ourselves, I'm sure Jesus definitely wants to tell us a different story, and so inviting him into that that's inviting him into our wound, and then he can say what another possible story is.
Speaker 1:And the story that he tells is the one that I would want to put my life behind. A lot of times in coaching we'll get into some inner healing prayer and a significant portion of what that looks like besides just remembering what's happened maybe naming the wound by the way, just recognizing this has happened is Jesus, where were you in this place? How do you see this scenario?
Speaker 1:Actually, last night at Awaken, one of my guys was sharing that God did something really significant years ago when we used to run Living Waters back in, you know, decades ago, and God showed him in one of the most traumatic events of his life that he was even there with him there. And as he's sharing, I'm thinking, wow, I wonder how that's going to feel to be like Jesus. You were there, but you didn't do anything. But he actually said he believes that Jesus got him home safe that night. Jesus is why he's still here, and something about recognizing Jesus there really helped him really significantly. Yeah, he invited basically Jesus into that place of the wound and was connecting himself to Jesus in that place.
Speaker 2:So one of the other big things that we talked about at the theology of the body and the training had to do with mercy, and that's the other piece is Jesus. When we have that wounding and then even that particular story, it was mercy he experienced and was aware of the mercy of Jesus to get him home safely. And it's interesting, there's a word that I'd heard before but I didn't know what it meant. It's a Latin word misericordia.
Speaker 1:Like.
Speaker 2:I think there's a university of that name. I didn't know this, but it means it's a heart that gives itself to those in misery, a heart that gives itself to those in misery. In this, jesus brings mercy to us. He has a heart that gives itself, he gives himself to us in our misery, and our wounds create an experience of misery, and so knowing that we're not alone and being able for this individual to look back and to have the awareness, looking back, that Jesus was present with me, he met me in my misery, he got me home safe is a is a beautiful thing.
Speaker 1:So much deeper and sometimes more painful. It's easier to sometimes intellectualize or just ask those big intellectual questions God, why did you let this evil happen to me? And sadly, we don't always know. More often than not we don't know on this side of heaven, but there's an invitation to recognize that Jesus loves you in that place. It didn't make you unlovable, it didn't make you unredeemable, it didn't make you unhealable.
Speaker 1:And I think that's actually one of the things we most struggle with in the Western world is we don't always know how to sit with pain, aka grieve or lament. And one of the things I've noticed with the guys that I walk with is like, especially, you know, in our context of America, we are very big on not feeling pain, having comfort. You know we have a very big both ad industry and, you know, medicine industry and all the all these industries that represent how do I avoid my pain? And I actually think probably the number one way I'm trying to look for a device I could hold up is our devices. Like my devices, keep me there, you are my devices, keep me from needing to enter in or even not needing, but they help me to avoid entering into some of the pain, but actually part of the process of this healing, part of the process of maturity and sexual integrity is Jesus and his mercy coming into our pain.
Speaker 1:That's not really part of our cultural narrative. You know, maybe Japanese culture with Kintsugi has a little bit more of a. Many Eastern cultures actually do have more room for grieving, for lament. We often shut that down in ourselves, in part because others shut that down. It's uncomfortable. We don't want to sit with sadness. We don't want to sit with the pain.
Speaker 2:Yes, a moment ago I held up my phone as a, as a, as a symbol of what we can go to as a means of avoiding pain, and it's interesting, the very thing that we go to actually reinforces our sense of isolation. We go to social media, we go to games and whatever it might be to distract us, and as we look at those things, you might see that well, at least I'm not looking at porn or I'm not doing something sinful per se, but yet, in a way, when we choose something that doesn't involve real human connection with another person or connection with Jesus, in a way, we're sinning against ourselves because it's reinforcing that sense of isolation. It's reinforcing that sense that others wouldn't be able to meet me where I am and rather than continue to pursue that, there's something about identifying the things that distract us and making choices to connect with others, to find unity with others, rather than that which can reinforce the fact that we're actually separate and not connected.
Speaker 1:And again, this is a big part of what we're hoping to do at the Awakening Retreat is we're trying to unearth okay, what are some of our fantasies telling us about our wounds? So we can name our wounds, how do we begin to invite Jesus into those, how do we begin to grieve those wounds? And in that process, so often there is more healing than we realize, even with forgiveness, by the way, forgiveness is one of those powerful forces in the spiritual realm, if I can say it that way. But sometimes we need to grieve to till the soil, to soften the soil, in order to be able to forgive, whether it is a parent wound, whether it's something else that's happened. That grief can actually be a necessary component to be able to both. You're actually acknowledging the fullness of the pain, by the way, in grief. You're actually acknowledging the fullness of the pain, by the way, and grief, you're not minimizing it anymore, but you're actually inviting Jesus into it in such a way that your heart can soften as well. It might sound a little counterintuitive, because the pain so often has led us to harden our hearts, but grieving is actually part of the process.
Speaker 1:Lament and, by the way, all throughout the Psalms. I love reading the Psalms because we see grieving, we see lament, we see things that in some ways aren't completely, maybe theologically great or accurate. Like you know, imprecatory Psalms about throwing babies against rocks or God, why have you forsaken me, god? You're nowhere to be found. Why are you asleep? But the Psalms aren't necessarily always speaking. You know some sort of grand theological truth. What they are speaking is the honest reality of what's going on in my heart and so often, by doing that and getting some of that lament out, our head and our heart can be more connected rather than kind of separated, disintegrated.
Speaker 2:And not just our head and our heart, but both if I use their correct terms hemispheres of our brain like left brain, right brain, connecting the acknowledging fact or story or details, along with the emotion and how and how we can bring that.
Speaker 1:Bring that together is a very, is a very, very powerful thing yeah, jim wilder, who talks a lot about formation, spiritual formation through the lens of neuroscience, says that joy is actually the sense of I'm glad to be with you and you can experience joy which helps basically fully turn on your right brain and take a lot of the load off of your left brain, right brain also being a faster part of your brain. But you can experience joy even in the sadness. You could be holding a crying person or you could be the one crying in someone's arms, but you know that they are glad to be with you in that moment. They're relationally glad to be with you and that can be a state of joy. So that's a way that we can have joy in our suffering, joy in our grieving, when we bring our grief to others and we're received with that kind of love it can be actually healing and transformative to our literal brains.
Speaker 2:And I think too, as we're experiencing that with another person, that gives us something a little more tangible to consider. Jesus being present with us and what it looks like to have him enter our wounds, is that fact that there's okay, there's someone that's present with me and they're not put off by the grieving that I'm doing, they're not put off by the wound and they're present with me. And again, that's that experience of being seen and, you know, bringing back the idea of sadness. And that first, the first, inside out, when, when sadness was sitting with bing bong on the edge of that cliff where the, the wagon that was going to take he and Riley to the moon was gone, sadness, sitting and being present, transformed. Bing bong enabled him to to grieve, and it all happened very quickly. He grieved, cried, tears of candy, and then, hey, I feel better, and then they got up and went on their way.
Speaker 1:If only the process were that quick quick it's not but that that's even a picture of of jesus entering our wounds and being present with us in in the midst of that pain so, dan, I'm going to give you the last word in just a moment, but I just want to say, yeah, there's a beauty and a truth to the reality that God, in Jesus, we see so clearly. He says a bruised reed, I will not break a smoldering wick, I will not snuff out. And so some of us here are. We're here, we're listening to Becoming Whole, we're part of regeneration, because our wounds have driven us so often feel like we've been crushed, feel like we've been left behind by god and by others. But jesus is the kind of god thank god that god is like this that does comes into that tenderness that this drawn to our brokenness when we bring it to him. That came to save us, not to, you know, prop us up or make us look.
Speaker 2:You know, keep up with appearances or you know religion and then kind of brought a sense of just doing the right thing outwardly, but he actually came for those really tender places in our hearts so, as a last word, I'm gonna, I'm gonna share something that would seem to be a maybe it's, but it's the lyrics to a song titled I Am Broken Too, and it's by a band called Killswitch Engage. And this band, I will give you a fair warning, it is not for the faint of heart, it's potentially of a style that some people will not care for. But just even hearing these lyrics because they're not written from a Christian perspective or anything, but I remember the first time I heard this song, it just stopped me in my tracks. It says you carry this weight, trying to cover your mistakes, to make it seem like nothing could ever break you. But I see right through, because I am broken too, in all the same places as you, and if you needed proof, I'll reopen my wounds. I'll reopen the wounds. I see myself in you and I know you can make it through.
Speaker 2:So again, the individual who wrote these words was not necessarily thinking of Jesus, but, as I consider that that's Jesus being present with us, I see your wounds. I'm wounded too, and if you needed proof, I'll reopen my wounds. Jesus will show us his wounds in his side, the piercings in his wrists and his feet. And not only Jesus, but having somebody else who comes alongside of us, like the spiritual coaches here with Regeneration Ministries.
Speaker 2:We all have wounds and I know that when I'm working with people, when it's appropriate, I may share some of my own wounds. But if I don't share the details of my wounds, I am engaging and interacting with people out of my wounds, out of the healing that I've received, out of the comfort I've received from God. I'm sharing out of that, and I know that's the case with the other spiritual coaches as well. So our wounds are not something to be run from, to run away from, they're not something to feel shame or self-contempt, but our wounds are to be brought to Jesus, pressed in his side, allowing him to enter into our wounds, to bring healing, so that we may have that life of fullness and of joy and then also possibly turn around and find ourselves in places where Jesus is using our wounds to be a blessing and to minister others and to come alongside them and lead them into a space that they may never have thought that they could have walked into themselves.
Speaker 1:So beautiful. Thank you, dan, so much for being with me today. Great to have you on the team and all the wisdom and expertise you bring just from your life and being a wounded dealer walking with a limp, you know, as they say. So, friends, just want to remind you. You can find links in the show notes to our Awaken retreat, if there's still space, and our Sacred Body Design retreat, so go ahead and check those out. As Dan mentioned, there are spiritual coaches here who would love to walk with you away from sexual sin and toward intimacy with Jesus and are really safe places to do that. So we encourage you to check those out. Grace and peace to all of you. Thank you for listening.
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