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Becoming Whole
Relationships and sexuality are areas of life that can be beautiful or confusing, life-giving, or painful. Becoming Whole is a conversational podcast for men, women, and families seeking to draw nearer to Jesus as they navigate topics like sexual integrity, relational healing, spiritual health, and so much more.
Becoming Whole
Embracing Joy and Connection: The Path to Wholeness
Have you ever wondered how to balance effort and grace in your spiritual recovery journey? In this episode, James Craig and Kyle Bowman unpack the concept of "doing versus receiving" as they dive into the heart of spiritual healing from unwanted sexual behavior. Kyle emphasizes the importance of divine guidance over self-driven efforts, and together, they highlight that real transformation often starts by addressing deep emotional issues rather than just managing surface behaviors. Get ready to explore how bringing your raw emotions to God can lead to true healing.
7 Desires (download mentioned in today's podcast)
Awaken Mens' Retreat - Are you ready to take your recovery to the next level? Regeneration is Excited to announce our First-Ever Awaken Men’s Retreat. We have crafted a two-day retreat at the beautiful Bon Secours Retreat and Conference Center in Marriottsville, Maryland from Saturday, September 28 to Sunday, September 29. Secure your spot today! We are currently offering an early-bird sale price and this event is open to just 20 attendees. For more information and to register click here.
Wives Betrayal Basics Webinar - For more information and to register.
Sacred By Design Women's Retreat - Are you a woman who loves Jesus & and you're doing the hard work to break free from unwanted sexual behaviors?
We would be honored for you to join us for our first Sacred by Design Retreat to be held on Saturday, November 2, 2024. This special time has been crafted for you to receive and relax, to create and connect. We pray you’ll join us as we slow down long enough to be caught up by our Creator.
Only 10 spots are available. For more information and to register click here.
Hi everyone. This is James Craig, spiritual Coach and Awaken Coordinator here at Regeneration, as we've been talking about for the month of August on Becoming Whole, we're talking about our incredible I'm talking with my incredible colleagues about our upcoming retreats. So we've got our Awaken retreat in just about a month from the air date of this episode and we have our Sacred by Design retreat a couple months after that, and so this week I have the pleasure of having one of my favorite people in the world, kyle Bowman, who is a spiritual coach and the DC Metro director and basically the supervisor of the coaches here at Regen. Kyle, thank you so much for being on Becoming Whole.
Speaker 2:Thanks for having me here with you, James.
Speaker 1:So a couple of weeks ago I had Andrea on and we talked in depth or in more depth, about the Sacred by Design retreat. We've been talking about the Awaken retreat as well, but a big theme of your one day Sacred by Design retreat is doing versus receiving. Can you tell me more about that? Can you tell the listeners about why you guys are focusing in on doing versus receiving?
Speaker 2:Sure, one of the things that can be a struggle for those who are dealing with some sort of sexual addiction, unwanted sexual behavior, is I've got to do stuff. I've got to. If I read the books, if I go to the seminars, if I go to the prayer meeting, if I do all of these things then I'll be better. Things will be different and I think sometimes that's sort of almost like the cart before the horse. Right, because we want this, it's not that doing isn't important, because there will be things we have to do, but we want that to be led and guided by us, by the Lord. So the Lord may say, hey, check out this retreat, or check out this book, or check out, you know, reach out for a spiritual coach. Those kinds of things should be directed by the Lord as opposed to just trying to do them all in hopes that if you follow the right formula, then you'll be cured.
Speaker 2:And part of this is being able to come with open hands and open hearts, which is the theme of our retreat, right Open hands, open hearts, so that there's this knowledge that when you come before the Lord, you have to come with your hands open Because he knows what he needs to fill them with and then to receive all that he has, because oftentimes, if we want to see our unwanted sexual behavior to really start to see transformation, we've got to have Jesus, of course, as a part of the process, because he is the transformer.
Speaker 2:So you've got to be willing to have your heart open for him to come in first and just to do some things in your heart that need to be done, like just to telling you that you are his precious son or daughter, for you to hear how much he loves you, for you to hear and receive that he is for you and that he's not expecting you to do something first before he can love you. He loves you right where you are, but he doesn't want to leave you there. He wants to be the one to help guide you to a different space, and so that's a little bit about the difference between doing and receiving.
Speaker 1:You know it makes me think of an awaken in the strength module. So awaken 360 goes throughout the entire year with content. But at the beginning of the strength module, which was kind of the first module written, we have this whole lesson on grace and effort and actually it's made its way into manaA, our new course. We're launching eight-week intro to recovery course based off the strength module. But basically the idea is that so many of us think that we can earn our way to God's love and God's healing and, yes, we're called to put in effort, but effort is not the same as earning. Earning is this mindset of. I deserve this because I did this Effort comes out of a place of grace.
Speaker 1:So you're kind of painting this picture that grace is really foundational. Encountering God in a relational, gracious way is the foundation from which we can put in the effort. And even that effort is most effective when it's directed by him and not like I'm going to read a thousand books because that's how I'm going to overcome this, or I'm going to do this, this and this. It's like Jesus, by your grace, what are you actually inviting me or enabling me to do?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And I think too that sometimes in that there is surprise, because the place that you think you need to go may not be the place that the Lord says, For instance, if you're dealing with a pornography issue and so you're thinking, okay, I've got to get my sexual urges under wraps, I've got to get my sexual urges under wraps, and the Lord might turn you toward where are the places in life that you didn't feel love or seen or valued? He might turn your direction there. He may turn your direction toward some underlying anger. Your direction toward some underlying anger. You know. He may say let's deal with this anger that's lying underneath, and then that might be the open door at which God leads you through to start the transformation process from your unwanted sexual behavior.
Speaker 1:It's so surprising sometimes because I was actually the weekend or the day we're recording. This comes right after our church's Freedom Day, which I helped facilitate, and one of the shocking things for people was like when they're pouring out their hearts to God, asking for freedom, maybe in a particular area, some of the memories that came up seem so random. One of my encouragements to them is, through all the years of coaching that I've been doing and leading groups, is don't minimize the memories that come up. There's something God wants to do there. Usually something more has happened than perhaps we've realized. We've minimized it, we've shoved it down, we've tried to tough it out, but God, in his grace and tenderness, wants tenderness, wants to meet us there. There's something significant there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely None of those things are random. You know, when you're walking through something like that and all of a sudden you have this memory of being 12 years old, that's not a random thing and that's a place to pause and just be curious. That's not a random thing and that's a place to pause and just be curious, to ask the Lord okay, why did this particular memory come up? What was I feeling there? What was important about it? What things do I remember around it?
Speaker 1:and again, that might be an open door to this, to this pathway toward freedom we also, I think, don't always recognize that God wants to do some foundational work, like we're kind of saying, with his grace. That might even be the jumping off point to further freedom. Because I think when we have a particular issue, we're coming into, let's say, regeneration, into our coaching spaces or into our groups and we really want healing in this particular area. One of the most annoying but actually amazing things that God does is heal us in areas we didn't even realize we needed healing. Sometimes even before we get the healing in, the almost like we want the tip of the iceberg healed right. I've got this behavior and God's like hey, there's actually a lot beneath that that I want to heal. There's deeper things. You mentioned anger. That just stuck out to me, Kyle. Have you found that anger has been a big theme in your coaching or in the groups that you've led with the women you walk with?
Speaker 2:Sure, and sometimes they didn't even realize that their unwanted sexual behavior was being fueled by anger, and understanding that even the anger wasn't the real thing, that there was even something beneath the anger. A person was abused in some way, shape or form. The true feelings might be just this feeling of no one was available to protect me. Why wasn't I protected? Even the question of why did God let this happen to me? And then that fuel starts to feel anger. And then that fuel starts to feel anger, whether it's people around them, at people around them, because maybe I need the anger to protect myself so that this doesn't happen again. Maybe there's anger at God because he really as a form of protection, just so that I don't get hurt again, because getting hurt was so painful. Now I've got to put some sort of protective mechanism in place to ensure that I don't get hurt again.
Speaker 1:How can I trust God to protect me if I wasn't protected back then? It's a really deep, profound place.
Speaker 2:Yes, and that's a big question to wrestle with. It's a hard question to wrestle with and God is okay with us coming to Him and asking that question like God where were you? Why didn't you protect me, why didn't you prevent this thing from happening to me? That's an important question to ask because I think it opens the door of your heart for God to reveal himself to you even more. Those kinds of questions don't push you away from God. God is not repulsed by them. Those kinds of questions put you closer to him because he has a desire to reveal something to you within you asking that question.
Speaker 1:You know, I wonder how many of our listeners grew up. If you grew up Christian or kind of adjacent to you know Christianity, how many of us felt like we could not bring that honest stuff to God. And what's been really interesting on my journey is I love a theologian named NT Wright and he actually challenged at one point the listeners of his podcast to read through the Psalms every month and actually his Anglican tradition has a breakdown so you can read through the morning and the night Psalms. So I've been reading the Psalms a lot the last few years and it's just striking the things that you're allowed to pray in the Bible.
Speaker 1:You know I say allowed to pray just to kind of joke at the fact that we actually have permission to say God, why have you forsaken me? Like theologically we might know that he's not going to forsake us, that you know Jesus kind of was forsaken on the cross so that we would never be forsaken. You know we might have some of that good doctrine in our back pocket, but the feeling was very much there in Psalm 22. My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Darkness is my closest friend. All my friends have abandoned me. Like just these really raw emotions. These unprocessed, unfiltered emotions can be brought out, as we see in the Psalms.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I always challenge some of my clients who come, especially if they've come out of traditions that tell them that you know you can't talk to God that way. You're not allowed to ask him questions or question him, and you know you can't share your real feelings with him. And I always challenge people to go look at Jeremiah 18. And I think it's around. I forget what verse it starts around, maybe verse 11, 10, 11, 12, somewhere around in there. But this is when Jeremiah. He was doing what the Lord asked him to do in terms of sharing the prophecy.
Speaker 2:Come on, you guys, we got to go to Babylon and everybody's trying to kill him, and he was upset at the fact that he was doing what God asked him to do and yet people were trying to take his life and he had gotten fed up. And so he goes through this little discourse about going to God and saying, okay, look, I did what you wanted me to do. These people are trying to kill me. So here's what I'd like for you to do, lord. Basically, I want you to kill everybody.
Speaker 2:And then he starts to talk about how he wants them killed. He's like you know. I want to hear crying the street of women who had, you know, lost their children, and I wanted the men to die by the sword. And you know he just goes on and on and on about like, yeah God, not just kill them, but I'm going to even help you out and tell you how you can kill them, and so, but he had this relationship with God that allowed him to lay his heart bare like that and to know that God wasn't going to chastise him, god wasn't going to rebuke him, but that it brought him to a place of this intimacy with God where he could share his whole heart and know that God was going to listen to him you know, it makes me think about how, when Tim Keller talks about the Psalms the imprecatory Psalms are very much what you just described with Jeremiah you notice that, yes, these are violent thoughts that the speaker's having, but they're praying those thoughts.
Speaker 1:There's something really profound about that, you know. There's really raw Psalms. There's really raw places in Jeremiah. I think Lamentations, which is also written by Jeremiah, has a lot of that. But they're praying those things to God.
Speaker 1:And so if we're convinced by our upbringing that we need to, either we typically hold back our anger and then it blows up occasionally. Maybe those are the only two ways to deal with anger. We're missing out on the fact that God wants to meet us in our anger, like with him. He is a very safe place to bring our anger and in fact, to meet us in our anger, like with him. You know he is a very safe place to bring our anger and in fact, if we bring our anger to him, we're often, you know, kind of letting the steam out in a healthy and holy place and it's not coming out as sideways maybe. So you know, kyle, it's making me think about this concept.
Speaker 1:I met a woman named Sue Moore who runs a ministry called Forgiven Much Ministries at a conference recently and she adapted this concept from Mark and Deborah Lazor, who I believe were pretty instrumental early in the sexual integrity field. It's called Seven Desires of Every Heart and I wanted to read this to our listeners because I've found this really profound. We're talking about these heart issues, these heart needs that we might've had even as kids, to feel safe and other things like that. When we recognize that these are actually God-given needs that may have been breached or broken, there could be some repair that God wants to do. So I'm just gonna to read the seven desires of every heart and I just want you, as a listener, to notice places in your own life where this was not met, where this need was not met, and perhaps even if you can begin to connect the dots, how you might be seeking to meet this through your unwanted sexual behavior. So number one was feeling heard and understood. Number two is feeling affirmed. I noticed, kyle, you mentioned earlier going to God and receiving identity and affirmation can be so key right. Number three is being blessed just for who we are. We don't have to do anything, we're just blessed. You are my son, I bless you, I love you or you're my daughter. I delight in you. Number four feeling safe. So we just talked about that a little bit. We all need to feel safe and work through places we haven't felt safe. Number five is touched. So physical, non-sexual physical touch Chosen is the next one, selected for special relationship and then finally included in the broader community.
Speaker 1:And I've brought this into a lot of my coaching sessions with, like, what desire of your heart do you think was activated when you went to pornography? Was there this desire to feel chosen? Or is there a way you feel safe going to porn because actually it's giving you sexual control when you did not have sexual control growing up? Or are you feeling this sense of affirmation Like I am? You know, in the context of men, I am affirmed as a man, even though it's obviously a fantasy, like I'm feeling, like I'm doing something good as a man, because I actually didn't ever feel affirmed for what I did growing up. So I'm just curious, kyle, how have you seen these play out in some of the sexual brokenness that you walk with women dealing with, or even in your own life, if you want to share?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was thinking about and I've had this conversation more than once with some of my clients and talking to there are women who are really surprised by the fact that, while they would not identify themselves as lesbian, they are watching lesbian porn. And so, as we start to have conversation about their relationships with women, I remember one woman in particular. Her mother was emotionally unavailable to her and there was a volatile relationship between her mother and her father person to, you know, kind of want to help her mom out because you know the dad would really overpower the mother on several occasions. And so she couldn't understand why she was drawn to lesbian porn. And so as we started to have some conversation about what kind of lesbian porn she was looking at and I know sometimes that can be an uncomfortable question, but it can open such a big door and so we started to have a discussion about the kind of lesbian porn she was drawn to. And she just mentioned that the woman was a rescuer and she could come in and she could save this other woman from whatever distress that she's in. And I asked her okay, let's just pause for a moment.
Speaker 2:I said what was your heart like as a young person seeing your mother being overpowered, often by your dad, and then your mother being emotionally unavailable. It was like you had this need to connect in a very healthy way to your mother. She needed to be emotionally connected to you so that you could have healthy, emotionally connected to you, so that you could have healthy, good same-sex relationships. And yet you saw her being overpowered. Why wouldn't you be drawn to pornography that plays that out?
Speaker 2:Because your heart is still trying to tell you something. Because your heart is still trying to tell you something. Your heart is still letting you know that there is some emotional healing in your mentors that can help. You know, feel this bond, that you need to have these healthy, nurturing relationships. And you're working out your desire to have protected your mother. Why wouldn't you be drawn to that? And I just remember her looking at me and going, wow, I would have never even considered that, but that opened up something really big for her at that point. And then we could start to have conversations about what does it look like to then start to heal those places. What does it look like for you to start to have some really good, healthy friendships with women that can help to start to transform and heal that place in your heart.
Speaker 1:You know, wow, I mean I hear almost, if not all, seven of those core desires like just being missed or twisted. You know, it makes me think of Tim Keller again, who says idols are simply good things that we make into ultimate things. And I think whenever we're dealing with sexual sin or any other kind of sin, really there's something good that the enemy is seeking to twist and that we're kind of partnering it to twist. There's a good desire for her to feel safe in her home. There's a good desire to feel chosen by her mom and included in the family in a healthy way. There was, you know, all these really good, god-given desires that a child is meant to desire, from God, ultimately, but from parents, you know, as the kind of intermediaries, almost like the priests, the people who stand in the gap, especially with the young child, between them and God and represent what God is supposed to be like.
Speaker 2:So there's so many ways, even in that small vignette, that, like she has really good desires that need to be blessed, actually, but that have been twisted and, you know, gone these different directions yeah, and and I think, like I said once, that door gets open where a person has, when the lord kind of opens up, their ability to really understand that, while we're not trying to get you to not take your own culpability for your own sin, but, at the same time, what are the other factors that go into that, that the process you didn't get there all by yourself and so just being able to go, yeah, I have this desire, I've filled it in this way. That's not healthy. But also, now that I can see so many drivers to that, and now there's this pathway on looking at how do I then start to heal that area? Because there are ways, the Lord has ways for those things in your heart to be healed.
Speaker 1:So how do we find that kind of healing Kyle? I think that in some ways is the question that I mean. For some people this can be a brand new concept that there's actually good desires that God has kind of wired us to have. But how do we help clients, how do we help those who are listening to Becoming Whole, connect these heart level desires, these places that were missed, these places that were neglected in their hearts? How do we help connect them with Jesus? And what does that look like? I mean, sometimes it's like, all right, I desire to be touched and, you know, in a healthy way. Jesus isn't, you know, in flesh, standing next to me. Like, what do I do when I'm recognizing these things? I'm seeing that they might be tied even to the fantasies or the pornography or other sexual behaviors I go to. I know that Jesus, you know, is the answer. But like, how, how do I actually begin to see Jesus meet these desires in my life?
Speaker 2:Well, I think the first thing is to think about. I think there's a mindset change that has to happen. First there's the lie that your desires are bad. They might get pointed in the wrong direction, but in and of themselves they're not bad. So I think that's the first thing. Is that okay, like this is a God-given thing. Sexual desire is something that's God-given and the things that fuel it are God-given, right. They're legitimate things.
Speaker 2:So I think, just accepting that truth, first and foremost, because it can be easy to walk in the practical things and not believe that what's happening, that you have desires that are good, it's kind of just, it's still sort of the doing. You'll walk through it, because you've heard us say that this is a way to do it, but you haven't changed your thought process around your desires. So I say, first spend some time just with the Lord and asking him to affirm the goodness of what's in you. When you take that step, then there are the ways that you can do something practically, like asking the Lord to show you people who are safe, to show you people where you can truly be known, because what we're talking about is experiencing true intimacy instead of false intimacy, and so the ways that you experience true intimacy come from how you're known, asking the Lord to show you who is, and start with one person. You don't have to have a rack of people.
Speaker 2:Sometimes I think people think they need you know five, 10 people in their circle as close acquaint or really close intimate friends. But I think you start with one and you start with Lord. Who is that person with whom I can take the risk of being transparent and being vulnerable, and that that person, lord, is going to allow me to experience you through my contact with them. And then think about the thing that you might want to share and and you know, maybe you don't start off with the thing that's you know a 10 emotionally. Maybe there's something you know less emotional it's. It's like you know it's like if you're going to lay out cards and you're not going to just shoot all 52 cards in the deck, you know you put down one card and see how a person handles your heart in that.
Speaker 2:How do you experience the love of Jesus through them, and I think that's a good way to get started is just starting with one. And I think another thing that people don't think about is where are the places you're experiencing joy. You know, some people get so wrapped up in their unwanted sexual behavior, trying to fix it, they're not enjoying life at all and they are just. And maybe they even think you know what? I can't even go out there and have fun because I need to get this thing fixed first and then I can go out there to have fun, not knowing that the joy might also be part of the transformation of your heart. And so those, I think, are just a couple of ways that that you open your heart up to allow Jesus to come in, to allow Jesus to come in, and then he starts to direct you into some of these places where you experience these wonderful friendships and you get to have a ton of fun you know, I feel like we're getting excuse me, I feel like we're getting a personal insight into supervision with Kyle.
Speaker 1:When I get supervised with Kyle, she's like so what kind of stuff is Jesus providing in terms of joy in your life? You know, that's one of my favorite things that you bring, bring up Kyle, and it's so crucial because we've been convinced by shame and by the enemy that, excuse me me, the only places of pleasure or happiness or whatever are going to be found in our sexual sin patterns. The only places where we can actually enjoy life or feel alive even are found there. So I think that there's something really beautiful about recognizing we need places where we're coming alive, that are non-sexual. We need, even if we're married and we're, you know, there's sexual intimacy with the spouse we need places where we can come alive, that are just God-given beautiful things, and even sexuality itself You're talking about earlier like reframing, right? We need this reframing to happen that there's good desires put in us.
Speaker 1:You know, I've heard it said that sexuality is most fundamentally about creation and connection. So we're all made to co-create with God. Even if we're never going to have kids, even if we're never going to be married, we're all made to co-create with God. This could look like art, this could look like building a business or a ministry, this could look like any number of things.
Speaker 1:But we're called to co-create with God and we're called to be connected, and so there's something about being in deep relational connection that we're deeply longing for and for some of us we've completely sexualized so that we don't have any sense of what it means to connect with another human without there being something sexual involved. But actually a lot of the deepest desires that are coming out, maybe sideways, in pornography or other sexual behaviors, are these deep desires for connection to be known and loved, to be affirmed and blessed, like we talked about of these seven coordinates, to be heard and understood. I mean, how amazing is it when someone gives us the gift of actual attention and they're not just, like you know, constantly looking down at their phone or whatever, like these kinds of things, can actually believe it or not, scratch some of the itches that we think can only be scratched through sex? Real relational connection can be met in those places.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think too, like you know, unwanted sexual behavior can be such a dream killer. I think some folks have these dreams in their hearts that they've longed to do, and it could be something as simple as you know, I want to go white water rafting. And they've allowed you know their own issue to prevent them from going and experiencing that, or even some of the things that they lacked in childhood, growing up, some of the nurture and the care that they lacked. The dreams went away. They may have had some childhood dreams that they may have wanted to try to pursue as an adult, but because of some of the sin that was committed against them, or maybe just an unhealthy household, and those dreams just died. And those dreams just died.
Speaker 2:And I think there's this opportunity to resurrect some dreams that maybe have been buried for so long, so that you can see again the Lord is not trying to get you to clean up first, that you can jump out there and you can pursue some things, because I believe those things are a gift from God. They're not just randomly things that you like. God specifically gave those desires to you as a gift for you to enjoy, and so how are you going to take that and use that as a means of experiencing God even in that. I had one client who just loves nature and has this profound sense of God's presence in his creation and being in his creation and knowing that she's even a part of his creation, that she gets to stand in this place and marvel at the works that he's done. She experiences God in that and gets a ton of joy out of that.
Speaker 1:You know, just like we're harmed in relationships, we are healed in relationships and even in those places in nature where you're just walking alone with God, even if it's. I've gotten back into doing puzzles in the last few years as a way to let my brain just decompress and simplify. What does it mean to do it with Jesus? Or like we're talking about as well, what does it mean to pursue joyful friendship, places where we can experience the healthy touch from other people or being in like a part of a community? So there's something really beautiful about this reality. It's a difficult reality and, of course, what are we most afraid of? In some ways, relationships. We're most afraid of people or even God, because we felt hurt or harmed or left alone when we needed protection in these kinds of spaces. But God actually means to use what's happened, what can happen in relationships, to restore what has happened in our hearts and lives. I'm going to share an announcement in just a second, but is there any last thing you want to leave our listeners with today?
Speaker 2:I think I would just want to say to all of our listeners is whatever barrier that you think is in front of you and is keeping you from attaining the healing that you are longing for, just know that it's never too big for Jesus to handle, that he can demolish that barrier completely and wholly if you're willing to trust him and say you know what, Lord, I'm going to take a step toward healing and I'm going to have my hands open so that I can receive from you and just allow you to move me through this process so I can get to a place of wholeness.
Speaker 1:Amen. Well, everyone, thank you so much for tuning in. Let us know what you think. This is a little bit of a longer form podcast. I mean we've been doing these interviews style the last few weeks and feel free to let us know what you think. I believe that there's a way to interact with us through the show notes. But also in the show notes is going to be the link to the Awaken Retreat, the Sacred by Design Retreat. So really encourage you to check those out. They're extremely space limited and it's even possible by the time this airs they won't have room, but encourage you to check those out if God has been stirring that, and also just to recognize you got a little taste of what it would be like to be in a coaching session with Kyle today. I mean, what a joy being with Kyle, every time I'm with Kyle and I myself am also a coach. So if you're looking for this kind of place to be known, if you're looking for a place to heal, just encourage you to consider checking out coaching with regeneration, and we also have groups as well. So all that can be found at regenerationministriesorg.
Speaker 1:And I just feel led to just say a quick prayer to close out today. So, father, I just pray that you'd be blessing our listeners, that you'd be restoring places that the enemy has sought to steal, kill and destroy, that you'd be giving courage to reach out in relationship to you and to others. You'd be giving the courage to be honest with you about where we've been, what's been twisted up in our hearts, and to find in you and in those you provide, these seven core needs that our hearts all have. So we love you. Help us to love you. Pray all this in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.
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