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Becoming Whole
Relationships and sexuality are areas of life that can be beautiful or confusing, life-giving, or painful. Becoming Whole is a conversational podcast for men, women, and families seeking to draw nearer to Jesus as they navigate topics like sexual integrity, relational healing, spiritual health, and so much more.
Becoming Whole
Revisiting: "Is it okay to fantasize about your spouse"
In a replay of a popular episode, Josh and James addresses a listener's question about fantasizing about one's spouse during masturbation. While scripture does not provide a clear directive on masturbation, it suggests that acts disconnected from the procreative and unitive purposes of sex does not align with God's design. From a practical standpoint, he acknowledges that fantasizing about one's spouse is a step towards sexual integrity but doesn't fully capture the essence of marital intimacy. Josh encourages listeners to pursue a journey of mastering their desires and aligning them with self-giving love. The episode also challenges the cultural belief that sex is a need, suggesting that while relationships and connection are vital, sex is not a necessity for being whole.
Check out this blog mentioned in today's podcast, "Do you need sex?"
Awaken Mens' Retreat - Are you ready to take your recovery to the next level? Regeneration is Excited to announce our First-Ever Awaken Men’s Retreat. We have crafted a two-day retreat at the beautiful Bon Secours Retreat and Conference Center in Marriottsville, Maryland from Saturday, September 28 to Sunday, September 29. Secure your spot today! We are currently offering an early-bird sale price and this event is open to just 20 attendees. For more information and to register click here.
Wives Betrayal Basics Webinar - For more information and to register.
Sacred By Design Women's Retreat - Are you a woman who loves Jesus & and you're doing the hard work to break free from unwanted sexual behaviors?
We would be honored for you to join us for our first Sacred by Design Retreat to be held on Saturday, November 2, 2024. This special time has been crafted for you to receive and relax, to create and connect. We pray you’ll join us as we slow down long enough to be caught up by our Creator.
Only 10 spots are available. For more information and to register click here.
Hey everyone, it's James Craig, spiritual coach here at Regeneration and host of Becoming Whole this summer of 2024. Today we're going to do a replay of one of our most popular episodes of all time. In this episode, josh is going to unpack a listener question around the idea of fantasizing about their spouse. He's going to unpack the idea of masturbation and also what it means to fantasize about one spouse, based on both scripture and wisdom for those seeking to move forward in their sexual recovery. All right, let's dive in.
Speaker 2:So the question I got this week was from a guy who's involved in an accountability group. The guys in the group are making good progress. They're leaving their unwanted sexual behaviors behind, including masturbation and fantasy. But one of the questions that's come up in the group is is it okay for a man to masturbate while fantasizing about his wife? Is it okay for a man to fantasize or a woman to fantasize? If the man is fantasizing about his wife, if the woman is fantasizing about her husband? There's actually a lot in that question. There's the underlying question of is masturbation itself okay? And then there's the question about is it okay to fantasize about my spouse, recognizing that you know, if I'm fantasizing sexually, fantasizing about someone who's not my spouse, not my husband or my wife, then I'm obviously going outside of my marriage for some type of sexual experience. But what if I'm fantasizing about my spouse? Is that okay? So I want to address this question by asking two questions of our own.
Speaker 2:One is what does scripture say? And then two what is helpful? So what does scripture say? What is Christianity, as we've read scripture for the last 2000 years, kind of understood about God's heart for sexuality. And then two is it helpful? So these guys are on their way towards sexual integrity. They're in an accountability group. Is this helpful for them on that journey?
Speaker 2:So first let's start with what scripture says. We have to say right out of the gates that scripture is not clear, does not give a clear commandment one way or the other about masturbation. Scripture is not clear, does not give a clear commandment one way or the other about masturbation. Some people point to Leviticus 15 and how a certain discharge would make a person unclean. Some would say that the discharge could include a nocturnal emission or an emission of semen. It doesn't read like that to me, but take that for what you will. And some people point to Genesis 38, where Onan is charged with marrying his deceased brother's wife in order to continue his brother's lineage. And yet he doesn't want to do that, and so he pulls out during sex with his now new wife, his brother's widow, so that she won't get pregnant. And God is displeased with that. And so some people point to that and say well, when he spilled his seed, that's the same as masturbation.
Speaker 2:I don't think either of those are real clear indictments against masturbation. They're certainly not pro-masturbation. Neither of those would give that impression. But I'm not sure that they're very clear. Another place you might look is 1 Corinthians 7. Here Paul is talking about. He says something that would be familiar to the church in Corinth, which was that a wife's body belongs to her husband. That was pretty typically understood A wife was kind of viewed like property at that point. But Paul says no, and the husband's body belongs to the wife, so you belong to one another, and that would have been revolutionary in that time and so and he's talking about in the context of sexual intimacy there, by the way and so, given that if your body belongs to your wife, then is it okay for you to masturbate? Is it okay for you to masturbate even while you're thinking about her? I'd suggest again I'm not sure that that's certainly not a pro-masturbation verse. It may not be entirely clear about whether or not masturbation is prohibited, but I think it's clearer than maybe the other two verses.
Speaker 2:So, and then the other place I'd look is is in Genesis one and two. So here we're talking about what is God's heart, what is his design, as revealed in scripture, for our sexuality, for marriage and sexuality. And, by the way, this is what Jesus does in Matthew 19. When the, when the Pharisees ask him a question. He refers back to Genesis one and two and he says in what you're describing was not so in the beginning. In the beginning it was like this, and he's specifically talking about a question about marriage, and so I think we're in safe territory to do the same. So in Genesis 1, god creates mankind in his image, humanity in his image, male and female, and his first command to them is be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth. So, in other words, in common language, husband and wife have sex and have children and grandchildren, and on and on and on. And then in Genesis 2, god creates man and then creates woman, and the man says she is bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh. And then the scripture say for this reason, a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife and the two. So I think, looking at these two passages Genesis 1 and 2, we find two distinctives for marriage, two things that are a part of God's heart, his original design for marriage. In the beginning, marriage was something that was both unitive it made two into one flesh and also procreative. It was about bearing children, or at least being open to children. So the sex act was something that was going to be open to new life.
Speaker 2:Hey everybody, do me two big favors, would you? First of all, if there's a topic you'd like me to be talking about on this podcast, shoot me an email at podcast at regenerationministriesorg. Secondly, would you rate and review this podcast by going to regenerationministriesorg slash rate when you leave a five-star review. It actually helps other people find the show. Thanks so much. Now back to it.
Speaker 2:Masturbation doesn't allow for either one of those. There's no possibility of new life when a man is masturbating, even when he's thinking about his wife, and there's no possibility for union with his wife, even when he's thinking about his wife, because his wife's not there. And there's no possibility for union with his wife even when he's thinking about his wife because his wife's not there. And so I think that's a pretty clear indicator that, at best, masturbation is outside of God's original design for sex. So if you're looking for scriptural permission, that masturbation is good, I think you're going to be hard pressed to find it. Even though you may not find any real explicit command against it, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find anything in scripture that would be like yep, this is actually a really good thing. So let's put that out there for your consideration. A lot more could be said, I'm sure, about what scripture teaches about sexual morality in general.
Speaker 2:Just in answer to this question today, let's move into the next part, which is what is helpful. So these guys are in recovery. They want to grow in sexual integrity. Hopefully, if you're listening, you want to grow in sexual integrity. Is masturbation and is masturbation while thinking of your spouse going to help you grow in sexual integrity?
Speaker 2:And here I think we get a lot clearer. So on the one hand, we might say you know, if you've got a history of viewing pornography or acting out sexually with other people, or masturbating and fantasizing about people who are not your spouse, is it better to fantasize about your spouse? I'd say, yeah, it's better. I'd say that's a step in the right direction. I think it's better to do that than to open your brain thinking about other people, because we do know neurologically that there's something that happens with sexual climax that imprints on your brain that neurons that wire together sorry, neurons that fire together wire together. And so if you're viewing pornography or acting out sexually with another person or fantasizing about another person, those neurons that wire together, fire together, sorry are going to wire together. So your brain's going to learn to associate sexual climax with pornography or with another person, and you don't want that. So, yeah, I think masturbation while fantasizing about your spouse is a step in the right direction. However, I think it at best is a step. It's not a landing spot.
Speaker 2:And here's why, when you masturbate, fantasizing about your spouse, are you really, truly and can you say thoroughly that you are fantasizing wholly about your spouse, about who she is? Is she who you're imagining in your head? Is she exactly like your spouse, or is it possible, in the heat of the moment, that she's acting a little differently than your spouse, treating you a little differently, engaging with you a little differently? And I think the answer to that has to be unequivocally it is not the same person as you fantasize, even though you're imagining your spouse. When you are having sex with your spouse, who's in control of your spouse? Well, she is. Your wife is in control of herself. But when you're fantasizing, who's in control of your fantasy wife? You are, you're pulling the strings, she's doing what you want when you want, how you want, not to mention that she's actually not even really there, right, which is not something that we should take lightly.
Speaker 2:Your wife, for whatever reason, is not available sexually for you, either because you're traveling or she's traveling, so you're not together, so that imagination is not really her. Or maybe she's not available because it's during her monthly period or she feels sick. And so are you really being with her as she is when you're fantasizing about her? Or maybe you're not having sex right now because there's an argument between you or because you're in recovery for sexual addiction and she doesn't trust you very much yet and it's hard for you guys to be intimate. So are you really being with her and faithful to her when you imagine her and fantasize and masturbate? And I'd suggest that it's the answer. That's got to be no.
Speaker 2:And the other thing I just just to throw out there two, two other kinds of barometer checks or heart checks around. This one is I've talked to a lot of guys who who masturbate, thinking about their wives, but their wives don't know. I think it's a pretty good tell that you're really not giving yourself to her. This is something you're reserving for yourself. So if you're keeping a secret from your wife that you're fantasizing about her and masturbating, are you being faithful to her in mind and body? I'm not sure that you are. And then add to that, if you were to ask your wife, how would she feel about it, would she feel like she's there in the room with you? She wouldn't.
Speaker 2:I think, guys, what we're getting at right at the heart of this and whether you're a woman who is wrestling with you know, fantasizing about your husband or a wife I mean sort of a husband fantasizing about your wife, about your husband or a wife. I mean sort of a husband fantasizing about your wife I think what we're getting down to is that we are human beings, body and spirit, and our bodies matter. You can't be sexually intimate with somebody who's not present with you and it just doesn't work. I mean, you actually need another person in order to be sexually intimate with them. So to be sexually intimate with your spouse, to be sexually faithful to your spouse, means that you're reserving sexual intimacy for them and them alone, and they're actually involved in the process.
Speaker 2:All right, let me leave this and conclude with one final word here that's really important. In no way am I trying to create a brand new law for you to live under. In no way am I trying to create a brand new law for you to live under. In no way am I trying to say you have to be perfect about this. In no way am I trying to be down on you if you wrestle with masturbation and fantasy. No, I know, I know the intensity of the temptation to masturbate and to fantasize. I know it can be a very difficult habit to overcome, and so I'm not trying to add extra burdens to you if this is a part of the journey that you're on.
Speaker 2:What I hope to do instead is to lift your eyes to the greater calling that's before you, this invitation in Christ to grow, to become more faithful as a husband or as a wife, to grow to be one whose love rules over your passions, whose love is actually the fuel, the engine for your sexual desire, and not the other way around, where your sexual desire actually trumps love in your life.
Speaker 2:You're invited to this great journey with Jesus, where you're learning to master your body, to master your passions, to master your desires and to place them at the service of self-giving, self-sacrificing love for God and for your spouse. And that's a beautiful journey, and so my hope is to lay these things before you, not to add a dour sense of you know God's watching and if you cross this line you're not supposed to, he's going to punish you. That's not what I'm trying to talk about at all, but rather I think God's heart, in seeking and saving that which is lost in you, is to lift your eyes, to give you this new aspirational vision of what faithfulness, what sexual faithfulness, what sexual integrity looks like. And that's a beautiful journey that you're on. And as you fall along the way, if you stumble along the way where your sin increases, his grace increases, all the more he is with you and he loves you. He loves you, he loves you.
Speaker 1:Thank you, josh, for your insights around God's design, as well as wisdom for recovery Really helpful. I just want to briefly talk about a question that kind of comes behind this question this idea of sexual needs. The person who's fantasizing about their spouse while masturbating may have the idea that what they're doing is they're satisfying their sexual needs. Here's a thought, though, that may be shocking to some of us no one needs sex. No one needs sex. Okay, I'm going to unpack that just a little bit.
Speaker 1:Josh actually wrote a blog on this a few years ago that will be posted down in the show notes, but in it Josh points out that without water, you will die within days. Without oxygen, you will die within a few. Well, you'll have brain damage within five to ten minutes. Without food, you'll die. You know, maybe in over a month, but without sex you will be fine. You know, maybe in over a month, but without sex you will be fine. If you're a man, you might eventually experience a nocturnal emission. But what else he says in the article? Eventually the intensity of your desire will dissipate, that's all.
Speaker 1:So why do we so often in our culture today believe that we need sex? So I just want to take us back on a little little history journey, okay, back a couple hundred years ago, to a man named Jean-Jacques Rousseau. Rousseau was the one who transformed Western culture to believe that the way to be authentically human and happy was to fulfill the inner desires of your heart, that your inner feelings should determine your actions. Years later there's many other thinkers who kind of took the baton, but about 100, 150 years ago Sigmund Freud came onto the scene, developing as the father of modern psychology. He was convinced that sex was actually a need again, taking it further to be a satisfied, happy and whole human being. And since the sexual revolution about back in the 1960s in the western world, we've come to believe as a culture that without sex someone's not going to be okay. This is not true. We can know that just from thinking about, like Josh did, the natural human needs that God has made us to have. You might also throw connection in there, by the way. We need connection and in the broadest sense our sexuality is about relationship. In the broadest sense, sexuality is about creation and connection. Josh talked about that a little bit in today's episode, but it's important to recognize that we do need relationship. We are made for relationship, but in the narrow sense of having sex or having an orgasm. That is not a need.
Speaker 1:We can look at scripture and recognize that if we're Christians, we believe Jesus was a sinless man, we believe that he was never married and we believe therefore that he never had sex and he was the most fully human person since Adam. He was the new Adam right, the new human, what humanity was meant to be. We can also infer the apostle Paul had the same view or the same experience, given his denunciations of sex outside of marriage, fornication and other things like that. So we can recognize that at least the person that we are most trying to emulate, the person we're in a love relationship with, jesus, lived a chaste, celibate life, and so did Paul a chaste celibate life, and so did Paul. And so all of us, whether single or married, can recognize that sex is not a need but relationship. So connection and partnering with God creatively are needs. Can that come out in a beautiful sexual relationship? Yes, but they do not have to be limited, and I'd say, at least for some of our older and wiser staff here at Regen, whether present or former staff, who have been celibate throughout their lives, they've recognized that there's a deeper satisfaction that we're after. There's a deeper hunger.
Speaker 1:As Chesterton says, the man who knocks on the door of a brothel is really looking for God. The man who knocks on the door of a brothel is really looking for God. And so they can be deeply satisfied without sex, believe it or not. They can be deeply satisfied as single people practicing celibacy in God and his people, in relationship with God and in relationship with others, in creating, co-creating with God and co-creating in the midst of his beautiful creation.
Speaker 1:So if you're listening to this, and especially if you've fallen into the lie that all men need sex, or a man cannot be faithful unless a wife is giving him sex, or vice versa, that a woman needs sex or a woman cannot be faithful if her husband is not giving her sex, those are not actually true. What is true is that God wants to redeem our desires. He wants to actually change our inner desires and make us people who desire him, to love him and to love others more than anything else. So thank you so much for listening along. Hopefully you're encouraged by this reality that we are not actually creatures who need sex and that our sexuality, the fact that we are sexual creatures, images God in his connectivity and his creativity.
Speaker 1:So please rate and review our podcast and you can continue to send questions to podcast at regenerationministriesorg. There's also a link in the show notes and I think even a direct way to ask. In the show notes we also want to invite you to consider becoming a monthly partner at Regeneration. Regeneration's a non-profit. Your gifts are tax deductible and your gifts help us to not only produce this podcast our women's podcast, sacred by Design. They also help us give scholarships to the many men and women who cannot afford to pay for coaching or for groups. So just invite you to consider praying about partnering. God bless you all. Take care.
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