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Becoming Whole
Relationships and sexuality are areas of life that can be beautiful or confusing, life-giving, or painful. Becoming Whole is a conversational podcast for men, women, and families seeking to draw nearer to Jesus as they navigate topics like sexual integrity, relational healing, spiritual health, and so much more.
Becoming Whole
Embracing Singleness
In this episode, Josh and Kyle Bowman, the Director of Coaches at Regen, dive deep into the experiences and challenges faced by singles, especially within the Christian community. They discuss the unique loneliness singles may feel, particularly in church settings, and emphasize that singleness should not be seen as merely a transitional phase.
Kyle shares invaluable insights from her personal journey as a mature single woman, highlighting the importance of community, self-acceptance, and finding joy in one's own company. They also tackle the topic of managing sexual desire in a way that honors God, providing practical advice on how to navigate these feelings with faith and resilience. This episode is a must-listen for anyone looking to lead a relationally and sexually whole life, whether single or married.
ReMember: a night full of worship, art, dessert, stories of God’s goodness, and an opportunity to partner with Regeneration. We invite you to join us for our annual dessert Regeneration fundraiser. We’d love for you to join us, It will not be the same without you. RSVP here!
It’s that time of year! We are inviting YOU to our annual dessert banquet.This year we have something special planned to go with our theme "RE-MEMBER."
Join us to see, hear, and learn the beautiful ways God remembers details of our stories with us.
Saturday, April 12th DC/ Northern VA: Click this link for more information and to register.
👉Men's Overcoming Lust & Temptation Devotional
👉Women 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Women overcoming unwanted sexual Behavior)
👉Compass 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Wives who are or have been impacted by partner betrayal)
Okay, we are back Today. I want to start with just a quick story. I was at a church event not too long ago and I just happened to be sitting next to somebody I didn't know, a woman in her 60s, I think, maybe early, I'm not 100% sure. We start chatting and I learn somehow early on that she's single. And as an older single, I was just intrigued because of my work here at Regen, walking with men and women who are wrestling with sexual brokenness issues.
Speaker 1:It's not uncommon to be talking to singles about their experience with relationships and sexuality and those kinds of things. So I kind of just pressed in and started asking a couple of questions to this woman and she said something in the middle of our conversation she's healthy and content and has got good relationships in the church. Healthy and content and has got good relationships in the church. But at one point she said sometimes Sunday mornings can be Sunday Sunday the Sunday hour for church that my hour at church can be the loneliest hour of my week. And I just felt like, oh my gosh, it just kind of stabbed me because I thought this, it ought not be that way. There is, there is.
Speaker 1:There are unique kinds of loneliness for singles, but it ought not be that way in church, and we know that many of you listening are married or are in various places in your own relationship. Some of you are struggling in your marriage, some of you have happy marriages and some of you are single. But what we're going to talk about today Kyle and I are going to talk about today, is important for everybody in the church. We're going to get into meat. That's really really important if you want to live a relationally and sexually whole life, whether you're single or married. But we're going to talk about singleness today. So Kyle Bowman is the director of our coaches at Regen. You've met her before, if you've been listening to this podcast at all. Kyle, welcome back.
Speaker 2:I'm so glad to be joining you, Josh all Kyle, welcome back.
Speaker 1:I'm so glad to be joining you, josh Kyle, as we dig into this topic today just for context.
Speaker 2:Why am I talking to you about singleness? Well, part of that is because I am single. I'm a single, never married person. And I'm not the youngest single person, I'm a little bit on the mature side.
Speaker 1:You're 34, 35 now.
Speaker 2:God bless you for saying that.
Speaker 1:Notice, if you're listening. She didn't say like no, I'm not that, I'm this. She just kept that kind of quiet. Anyway, go ahead. Sorry, I don't mean to.
Speaker 2:No, but yeah, I think it is not talked about enough. Just singleness is not talked about enough outside of oh, how do you prepare yourself for marriage?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Not. How do you prepare yourself for a life that might not include marriage, a life that might not include marriage, and what does that look like? And how to encourage people maybe who already had that sense that they're not called to marriage. And so how do you talk to those folks and help them to know that, like they're not standing on the fringes of life, standing on the fringes of life, that God has a very wonderful life and purpose for them in their singleness, and they don't have to be like in this holding pattern or this waiting pattern of oh then when I get married, I will be fill in the blank, so then when I get married, I will be fill in the blank.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's not like you know, I like that word. Holding pattern, like singleness, doesn't just have to be for some people. It is Some people, not a holding pattern. I don't think it should ever be a holding pattern, but for some people it is a it's an interim season of life.
Speaker 2:A season of life.
Speaker 1:Yes, some people. It's an unwanted prolonged season of life. Some people have been married and find themselves single again, either because of the death of a spouse or divorce. So there's lots of reasons that people find themselves single. And I think what you're getting after in some ways is we want to kind of blow up or just kind of really pull down this false idea that singleness is just a holding pattern. It's just kind of like a something that's you're not like. The people are not supposed to be single, at least not for long, and if they are, something's wrong.
Speaker 1:The other thing we're going to get after in this podcast a bit is especially in this culture, because if you're, if you're not a Christian, you're not following Jesus. If you're not adhering to what scripture teaches about sex and sexuality and you're single, then go ahead and have sex with as many people as you want. Might be your way to address loneliness, address sexual desire, those kinds of things. We don't condone that. We're saying non-Christians might not have a problem with that, but for Christians, we don't condone that. We're saying non-Christians might not have a problem with that, but for Christians, for devout men and women who find themselves single and who are wrestling with sexual desires or just simply feeling sexual desire, which is a very normal, god-given experience.
Speaker 1:What are they supposed to do with that? And I think that's another place where churches and Christianity hasn't done a great job of talking about like, yeah, what are people supposed to do that? I think that's where we often hear, you know that really bad advice about what people are supposed to do. So we'll get into that a little bit later. Kyle, maybe begin just on a heart level. What's?
Speaker 2:your experience been like as a Christian woman in various church settings not necessarily certainly in your church, but just in Christian circles around that you show up to, somebody asks the question oh, so you see anybody? Oh, you're getting married. Oh, you know that thing. I've been blessed not to have been approached in that way. However, I definitely have been around those who have, and you know sometimes they dread going home for the Christmas holiday or Thanksgiving because people are going oh you didn't bring anybody with you.
Speaker 2:Oh, are you seeing anybody? Oh, and they're. You know constantly having to address that in some of the circles they're in. But the thing that I found is like typically all the single folks kind of hung together. There wasn't like there wasn't like this mixture of, oh, I hang out with the married people and I hang out with the single people you know, and the churches I've been like we have all kind of stayed together and have had like long-term friendships, like even if people went off to a different church or moved away, we still stayed in contact. Like you know, we kept that group chat text going with us together, and so that's more of the experience that I've had is just that you had this kind of group of singles that you hung with and those are the people that you ended up spending more time hanging out with and doing things with.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if you were to think about kind of like on a monthly basis, like the people that you connect with in a meaningful way, outside of work, outside of, maybe, a church service, what would you say? How many of those for you are single versus married?
Speaker 2:the 95 of them are single okay, yeah, I would say that for some reason, like whether it's divorce, whether it's widowed, but but 94 or never married, like 95% of them are single.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I would say that's probably the same for me with marrieds. Like the 95% of people I hang out with or I would see in a meaningful way are maybe a little little less than that are, but most of them are married. Little less than that are, but most of them are married. They've got one one dear friend who is is never been married and we we connect about once a month and that's a meaningful but yeah, it's interesting. I wonder. I mean I'm kind of outing us in a way but like cause? I guess? In some ways I'm like I think part of what we're advocating in this podcast is it shouldn't be this way, but like why? I mean let's take should out of it for a minute. Like why is that? Why is that for you? Like, would it? And then I'll kind of share what that's like for me.
Speaker 2:Maybe it's just because of life circumstances dependent upon, like, what your age bracket is. You know, maybe most people are, they have small children or they have children, and there are a lot. There's a lot of focus on having to do things with their family. Oh, the kids have this, or, you know, my husband has this or my family is going to do this. So there's, you know, there's rightly so there's a focus on family and it's interesting, like the my best friend is married. They don't have any children and so there's a lot more interaction with the two of us.
Speaker 2:I, I get invited to their home all the time. They're they're not these other outside things that they have to attend to in terms of just the core of their family, so I can spend a lot of time there with them and get invited. There have been a couple of married people at my church who were like you know, I really want to have you over for dinner, me and my wife, we want to have you over, and some of those things just did not come to fruition, but I've been approached a couple of times like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think life circumstances so much of the burden, the weight, the challenges that I experience day to day, that I look for support in dealing with, are about being a husband or being a father. So in some ways that makes sense to me, although I will say also maybe we'll get into this a little bit later but the value of hearing and being influenced by single brothers and sisters in the Lord and maybe for me, especially singles who have been single for a long time they have a wisdom about some things and perspective about some things I do not get from married brothers and sisters. And yeah, so we'll come back to that, I think, a little bit later, because I do think that there's. You know that if there are different parts of the body and the eye can't say to the hand, I have no need of you.
Speaker 1:I think that that's probably an important admonition for marrieds and singles in relation to each other in the church that we should be wary of of anything that says like you know, I'm good, I'm good at just my own kind, kyle, you, you, you. You made a comment as we were prepping for this and I just want you to speak to and there's a little bit of a gear shift here, but you were talking about wholeness and I think some of it comes from your experience as a coach here at region and working with people here. There's almost a sense among some people that I need to get after the broken parts of my life, become whole so that I can become married, and you were. You were kind of challenging that like what's, what's your experience with that Ben and and? And what would you say to listeners who kind of feel that way Like yeah, I want to. Yeah, I mean, what's on your, your heart with that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I. I think, as you know several of the women that I've talked to over the years of being a coach, there is this longing that you know they understand. Okay, I had this thing. I have to get after it so that I can be the wife that I need to be. I can, you know, I'm healthy enough to get into a relationship, into a relationship, and they don't think about wait, like how about shifting that perspective and allowing your drive toward that to actually be? I want to be whole because I want to be the person that God has called me to be right, and not just so that I am, you know, this person. That's just a. Now I'm more available for marriage Because I think part of what can happen is you can step into a relationship and think, well, because I'm whole, everything's going to be okay, relationships will be great and fine, I won't have any issues because I'll be healthy and not understanding weight, like life is a sanctifying, a sanctification process that there's always going to be stuff that the Lord reveals and shows you whether you're in a relationship or not, and so really kind of helping people have a heart shift to say, wait, like no matter what, I want to be whole, no matter what, because it's what God desires for me.
Speaker 2:And and I think even, and sometimes even, when it's not necessarily a tie tied to marriage, not necessarily tied to marriage, but like, oh, when I'm whole I'll be a more, I'll be a better worship leader, I can serve, be a better servant in the church, I can serve now in the church, I I I'll have this sort of like carte blanche thing to do all this stuff because I will have gotten rid of this thing and I won't have any more issues to deal with so I can engage more in things in life.
Speaker 1:I think it's interesting on the because on the one hand there's there's truth to it, like I'm grateful that I went through that. I got some therapy good Christian therapy and then I got involved in a regen group before I got married. Like man, I saved myself so much heartache and trouble in marriage because porn did not have a hold on me and some of the other sexual sins that I was engaging in were a thing of the past by the time I got married. Like it helped. But I think part of what you're getting after with that is that that we, we can almost hold health and wholeness as a a bartering chip with the Lord for the next thing, and I think what it exposes is is our idolatry of whatever that next thing is, like you know, being a worship leader, being a pastor, being a husband, being a wife and I.
Speaker 1:I think what we miss when we have kind of uphold like hold that up, as this is where I'm going to find value and so I need to, I need to get better so I can have be valuable in this way. We miss that and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what I'm hearing you say is that we miss how much God values us right now that his desire for our healing, his desire for our freedom, his desire for our wholeness is because we are so valuable to him here now Like it's not so that we can become more valuable later. It is that God's sanctifying us. He's working these things out in your life, wants to you to get after these things because you're his treasure and it's you're not going to become more his treasure when you are quote unquote marriage material or pastor material or leader material. Those things are just add-ons to sharing life and ministry with him. They're not badges you wear or markers of your value. Is that? Am I connecting to some dots there?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and some of it is unlearning some of what you've heard in church. So often, marriage is held up as the gold standard, if you will.
Speaker 2:This is the thing that every person needs to strive for, which is very sad to think that Because, again, like, if there is an individual who is just not called to marriage, they know that God has set them apart for something else. What does that do for a person who is there or a person who, where they are, they're like I'm not really ready for that. I don't think I'm ready for that, and so why should I try to pursue something that I'm not ready for, which is heartbreaking to think that I've got to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that this is what I got to do, and then I think that that can be what happens. Then you go. Well, I guess, if I got to do this, you know you get yourself into a relationship that is totally not healthy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so let me push you a little bit here. Let me just ask this question, like to the listeners who are, whether married or single, listening going like wait, what are you talking about? Like, what could be a higher calling than than than marriage and family? What would you say to that?
Speaker 2:I would say that takes such a big brain shift to think. I don't think we think about the fact that we are the bride of Christ. I don't think that's. I know. For me that wasn't a thing, and so it's thinking wait, there is a marriage that's going to happen that's so much bigger and better than what will be experienced on earth. And am I okay with being able to maybe I do have to sit in the pain a little bit of what it means to not have that longing met but anticipate that there is this wedding feast that's going to take place that will put earthly marriage to shame, and not to say that as a way of knocking earthly marriage, but that even people who are married have to understand that this is not the end, all to be all, because then what happens is you end up idolizing your spouse, and what God longs for is for us to really want what is coming.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's so good. Okay, I gotta riff here a little bit with you here, because, on like for christians, for the christian church to find themselves upholding marriage and family as the ultimate calling, like this is the like. What could be more important is to miss so much of the reality of scripture. Our savior did not marry on the earth. He is the bridegroom and there will be a wedding one day, a spiritual union, not a sexual union. A spiritual union between the bridegroom, christ, and his bride, the church. We follow him, we are followers of him. So why would we think that every single person who's following him would have to be married on the earth?
Speaker 1:The primary author of the New Testament, paul, who's got more letters in the New Testament than anybody else, did not marry and said in Romans said I'm sorry. First Corinthians seven said I wish that you would be like me and remain single, because if you're married, you got to busy yourself with you know, concerning about your wife and your kids, but, like, if you're single, you can devote yourself just to the Lord. He didn't, it wasn't a command, it's not. He wasn't trying to flip the you know the script and say you know the not you know. Now the highest calling is to be single. But I think I think through through both of of of the example of Christ, the example of Paul, the example of so many saints through the ages, we recognize that there there actually is a higher calling than marriage and children, and it is obedience, following the Lord. And if you're married, then be obedient and follow the Lord in your marriage. Lay down your life for your wife and your kids and others, as God leads. If you're single, follow the Lord, lay down your life for him and those he puts in your life. That is the higher calling.
Speaker 1:And you're right, we idolize our. If we're married, we are prone to idolizing our spouses. We're prone to idolizing the comforts and pleasure of marriage. We're prone to idolizing our kids or houses or the you know, two cars and five bedroom house or whatever it is. Excuse me, which is, you know, idolatry is idolatry, whether it looks quote unquote Christian on the outside or not. Did I say anything heretical there? I think? I think I'm on target here, right? No, yeah.
Speaker 2:No, I don't think you did. I think the thing we have to acknowledge, though, like it's not like, just because we said this, that you can go oh, ok, I get it, and right, because that didn't happen for me, like I didn't just, you know, hear this information and some people might be hearing it and go you know, that's a bunch of malarkey, you know, cause, like, what am I supposed to do now? And I think we have to acknowledge like, like there is a place of suffering, if that's the longing in your heart and it has not happened. I think there is a place for the longing and the grief and to be able to express that, not to just push it off and say, oh well, hey, you got this other thing you got to look for and it's going to be great. That still, for a lot of people, doesn't answer the question, but what about?
Speaker 2:right now, and I think there is permission to be sad. Maybe there's some anger, maybe there's some anger, and can you bring all of that before the Lord and allow him then to to present something else for you, to have your heart open to receive something from him, cause as you give that longing and pain to him, he has something else he wants to give to you.
Speaker 1:I want to ask you about that. I want to introduce one other thought to singles and marrieds listening just because I'm not sure we'll find another spot for it, so it may not fit exactly here I was talking about before. When I interact with singles who have, who have done some of the hard work of pressing through whatever the pain or loneliness or difficulty, or even the spiritual work, but also even just the relational work, like you know, there there's some challenges. I experienced that others around me in my church don't seem to. When I interact with, with men and women who have kind of gone the deep roads that you're talking about, kyle, one of the things that it does for me is it helps to illumine the reality and gives me permission even to pay attention to the reality that, as much as I love my wife, as much as I love my family, they do not satisfy me and at the end of the day, as much joy as there is, as much satisfaction as there is, there is still an ache in me for something more, and so I want to. I hope, yeah, so, anyway. So let me, let me just put it.
Speaker 1:Put it to you as a single woman in your late thirties, however old you are, kyle, what does that look like for you? I mean, like, can you get practical from it, say, say, you know there's a single person listening. He was like man, I always wanted to get married. I'm now in my late fifties and I'm not sure it's ever going to happen for me. I'm not sure it's ever going to happen for me. What do you mean, like, how do I press into this higher, calling this, this, you know this, something else that you guys are talking about in a way that's actually going to help help meet some of my needs. So I stopped running to porn, so I stopped, um, just beating my head against a wall and this way or that way, like, what would you like? What have you done? What do you prescribe here? What helps you?
Speaker 2:One of the things that has been important for me is what are the things that bring me joy? What are the things that I engage in that bring a smile to my face, that when I think about doing them I go? Man, I can't wait. Whether you go to a concert, whether you have a specific hobby, you like to golf or you like to be in nature, what are those things that bring you joy that you can be intentional about doing? I would say too, like you know, as early on as a younger single, I would always wait for somebody else to engage in certain things with me, and I would say even in the past year or so, the Lord has been challenging me about finding my own adventure. There are things that I can do that I love and enjoy, and I don't necessarily have to have someone with me in that and know that God has given me that as a gift to enjoy. So that's one thing, but the other thing, community, is important. I am blessed to have some great friends that and I'm a person I love like gathering with people and, you know, sitting around and cracking jokes and making fun and just having a good time. I make it a point and I'm really intentional about it. I know that everybody is not that way. One of my friends actually said I am so grateful for your persistence. Yeah, because I like. Okay, you said you want to get together. Let's do it, like, let's get the date on the calendar, and so some of that is even maybe having to step out of your comfort zone a little bit and not wait for everybody to come to you and say, hey, do you want to hang out? But if you want to hang out, if there's somebody you think that might want to do that, just go ask them. And even if it means you guys have to stop and say, okay, maybe it doesn't happen in the next two weeks, pull out your calendar, pull out my calendar, let's put a date in and just do it. And I think then, what are the ways that you are continuing to remind yourself of who you are in Christ? Because I don't think any of this works.
Speaker 2:If you don't feel good in your own skin Because when you connect with people you're going to maybe want to grasp something from them, right, Then you end up. You've got these emotionally dependent relationships, or maybe these relationships switch and they turn into sexual relationships and you're trying to grab from them something that you're longing for that is going to. What you get from them is very temporary. I think it's really important to solidify who you are in Christ and remind yourself of that when you hear the enemy saying you know what? Nobody really wants to be with you. It was yours X, y, z and you can go. You know what, jesus.
Speaker 2:I know who you say I am, and you might even have to say it out loud. I know who you say I am and so I know that I am your beloved. I know that you have known me from the foundations of this world. I know that I am fearfully and wonderfully made. You might have to do that kind of thing to remind yourself. Maybe you're visual, maybe you got to put it up on the mirror, on the wall, but the things that can help you remember who you are, I think, help you to know that people find you valuable and then, when you get into the presence of others, you're not trying to suck the life out of them. You want to just enjoy them and who they are, and they can enjoy you and who you are.
Speaker 1:Yeah, boy Kyle, okay, the last, however long you were talking, like the amount of wisdom in what you just shared we could spend a whole other podcast talking about. And I want to highlight a couple things, maybe just kind of call them out of what you said, starting with spending time by yourself and and taking god's invitation to recognize what brings you delight, what brings you joy, and saying yes to those things. And you, you, you at one point said something to the effect of God's put these desires in me and he kind of invites me into them. Like, and I think I think part of what's so healthy about that it's learning to and Mary's need this too. We absolutely need this too, for some of the same reasons. But to, to, to learn to be comfortable with yourself and to and to honor the good of your desire and the good of your experiences and the good of your own joy, even when somebody else isn't there to affirm it or share it. Not that that's not important and you got into that, but the other, the other piece of it is there's.
Speaker 1:I almost kind of hear the word romance when it comes to your relationship with God. Let's say I love nature, or I love something specific in nature. I love finding rivers to just sit by and listening to the river go by, to recognize that the desire I've got for that has come from God and the river has come from God, and the river and my time by it is a gift from this God. Now we're now we're back into the realm of talking about the bridegroom and his bride. That which is imaged in earthly marriage is now being experienced in a kind of a foretaste way, as I'm experiencing and spending time with myself and the Lord as he gives this gift. In that moment, I think part of why that's. And then that translates to a different kind of posture. When I spend time with people and the same is true in marriage I mean, if my orbit is entirely around my wife or my kids and if I'm looking for my wife, my kids to let me know that I'm okay, that I'm desirable, then I'm sucking something from them and I'm not able to love them because I'm always looking for something from them.
Speaker 1:And when it comes to singles, like I know, for as I walk with men and women who are single, the the the number of times I hear somebody talk about like just their own experiences of rejection. You know, I called somebody and they said we're going to get together. But they never got back to me Like and it must be because I am fill in the blank or I'm not fill in the blank and I heard you say, like you know, if a friend who says you know, like thank you for being persistent with me, and if you were grasping and looking for that person to let you know each time you reached out that you're worth being a friend to, because they reach right back out or because they always initiate, then you would have not been able to give them the gift of your persistence, because they want relationship with you but, for whatever reason, they struggle with it. Man. So anyway, so much in there.
Speaker 1:Kyle, that is really hard terrain. I mean you kind of like waltz through it. You can tell you have experienced it. But like really hard it's hard it's. It can be hard to motivate to get out and go spend time by yourself and delight.
Speaker 2:It can be hard to like be persistent friendships especially if you live in an area you know we're here in the dc maryland, virginia area, where you do, everybody has to get together and pull out their phones and say, okay, what's the next open day on your calendar?
Speaker 2:It's ridiculous, right, and you may live in an area where people are so busy and they're moving and they're hustling and they're bustling, and it can be.
Speaker 2:It can feel really defeating if you go oh my gosh, like you don't have anything available for the next three months, right, that that is hard, but I think also that speaks to what does it look like to even expand your circle, which is a risk, which is like a risk, right, it's to be able to see somebody that you've maybe never seen before and maybe you're in a situation where you know that might be other singles, and just to even go and say hello and strike up a conversation, like that's risky and scary in and of itself, but sometimes like how might you be blessed by them and they be blessed by you, because maybe they're waiting for someone to step up and say hello and you take the risk and say, hey, how are you doing? Say hello and you take the risk and say, hey, how are you doing? You may have just changed the trajectory of what they were feeling in that moment, because you took the risk.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, man, yeah, and I think all of us in today's day and age maybe. I know that the statistics about loneliness among men is off the charts Like the. I know that women are getting lonely too, but the number of men's there's some research about whether married or single, the number of friends that men have continued to drop as they age. They have fewer and fewer friends. They're lonely or they can be lonely and lonelier. And we are such a busy people. Yeah, okay, kyle, last question for you. Let's just kind of dive right into the, the, the deep waters here. Sexual desire what are you supposed to do with sexual desire? As a single person? God has given men and women sexual desire, and part of being whole is even experiencing desire for romance, desire for sex, desire for touch. What am I supposed to do? We live in a culture that says sex is a right and a need. So you can't be healthy and not have sex what do you say what does scripture say, what, what, what.
Speaker 1:What are christians supposed to hold to here? And and maybe even practically what do you say? What does scripture say, what, what, what, what are Christians supposed to hold to here? And and maybe even practically what do you do with sexual desire?
Speaker 2:I think there's a change of perspective, that that has to happen. First, I have talked to several different single women who I don't know that they could articulate that sex actually was created by God and that it should point to him. Paul David Tripp talks about when he was referring to sexual pleasure and he said every pleasurable thing should point to the one who created it. That for a lot I think a lot of people, regardless of whether they're married or single it's one of those things where I say something like that, like, do you understand that sex needs to point to god? And you get right. Yeah, yeah, that's a buzzkill. What are you talking about?
Speaker 1:like yeah, yeah to God, and you get right. Yeah, yeah, that's a buzzkill. What are you talking about?
Speaker 2:Like, yeah, go on, go on. And so I think then you can start to put sex in its perspective when you realize, oh wait, this act, this is not just about me getting my needs fulfilled, there's something about this act that should image God, and that's the big, that's a big jump. And so I think, when you can wrestle through that, I think then you can start to say, okay, well, what do I do with this? Because it's really easy to go well, I need to have my needs met. Or the only way that this is going to go away is if I do go look at porn, if I masturbate, if I call somebody and hook up. That's the only way this is going to get dealt with. Or you might have the thing of you know what, I'm just going to shut it down. I'm going to figure out how to shut it down so that it never arises again. And when I get married, I'll just flip the switch and turn it back on. And that's not a reality either. And so when you can understand that the act of sexual union should always point you toward the Lord, then you can say, okay, now that I know that I can receive that truth, I know that I can receive that truth then, when I am in the midst of sexual desire, there are some really practical things to do, like maybe just even pause and go. What was my day like today? Was it a rough day? Did I lose a family member? Did something really happen hard happen on my job? Did I have a rift with a friend? And just even understanding that what you might be longing for is comfort because of the things that have happened, or maybe even over the course of maybe not even that day, but a week. Maybe you just need some sleep, maybe you might be tired and you don't realize how tired you are and how vulnerable you are. And then to be able to start to engage with God around that it's like you know what, lord? Like this week was so incredibly hard and I feel like if I just had this ability to enjoy sex with someone, I can release all of that and now I'll be okay being able to say that to the Lord. Or if, in that moment, you're saying you know what? Like, I really want to go look at porn. I want to go look at porn, I want to masturbate. I'm going to be good, because that's the only way my heart is going to feel better is to be able to say that to God.
Speaker 2:I remember I shared that with one young woman and she was like you can't say that to God. I was like, sure you can Because, first and foremost, sure you can Because, first and foremost, he knows already what's in your heart and he long and you know what you might. Maybe it means you have to walk the floor for a little while, right, because none of this comes without suffering, and I don't care whether you're single or married. A lot of this comes through suffering and when you can allow yourself to feel the pain not try to numb it and get rid of it, but feel it and then dialogue with God, like this might be. A new concept for people is that wait, I'm having sexual desire and I need to talk to God and not go. God, take it away. Take it away. Take it away, not that conversation.
Speaker 2:But, god, I'm feeling something in my body that you have created and you have called it good, and I want to do something with this goodness. And I don't, but I want to honor you. I want to honor you, god, in the midst of this and, lord, show me what it means to honor you. Show me how I can take this energy and maybe I turn it into worship. Maybe God you're going to direct me to go lay down and go to sleep or to exercise. Go lay down and go to sleep or to exercise, or. But the Lord doesn't want to just leave you in this place, where you are just totally frustrated about where you are, and just leave you there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and you're. I mean you're this is such deep waters. Kyle, I want to make a shameless plug here, if you're listening, going like I still don't get it. It doesn't. It's okay, you are in good, good company and you're you.
Speaker 1:You have been formed by because all of us have a culture that does say that sex is a need and you can't live without it, and it has kind of set up a paradigm where we we tend to believe it's just in the the water we drink, even though it's not true that sexual desire builds and builds and builds and the only way that it'll ever be relieved is through acting out in some way. Kyle, what I hear you saying is, instead of repressing our desire, instead of cutting it off and instead of just giving into it, you're really talking about opening our desire, beginning to practice and learning to open our desire to the Lord and being, as you talk about, being honest to him, telling him what he already knows. And what strikes me about that is that what you're referring to is is cultivating intimacy with God, like sexual intimacy between a husband and wife. Is includes opening your desire to your spouse when it's when it's healthy, not viewing your spouse as a sexual outlet to kind of, you know, get rid of your desire or to satisfy your desire. If, if your experience of your spouse is, is there an outlet for your sexual desire, then you are missing something very significant that, as as you put it, points to God about sex.
Speaker 1:God does not approach us to satisfy his desire. He approaches us with love for our sake. But in a healthy marriage, a healthy marriage is just trying to image that love of God, and so what I hear you inviting our listeners to and me too, and you too can can we cultivate a kind of intimacy with god where even our distorted desires or our desires we don't know what to do with, our desires that are really intense, where we can be open, honest with him and learn to walk with him through our experiences of those desires, whether they're being met or not. But but certainly when we are experiencing the, as you put it, suffering of unmet desire, which is a common human experience for everybody, even the person who indulges all their desires, will find, on the other end of that, intense suffering because they have no control, because they've become an addict. That's hard stuff and it's why regeneration's here, it's why we exist. I mean in large part because it is a complex and difficult but really deep, rich environment to cultivate intimacy with God.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thanks for that, kyle. I appreciate you not holding pulling punches on kind of the practical and the. I don't want to say practical and spiritual, as though spiritual is not practical, but but I think you know what I mean by saying like the practical kind of down to earth, I may need to walk the floor, I mean to call a friend, I need to call to the community and also this more mysterious, maybe less familiar terrain of of walking with the Lord, with, with these very earthy physical experiences that we have.
Speaker 2:Yeah, any final word for us.
Speaker 1:Yeah, go ahead Sorry.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was going to say I think I would say be kind to yourself in this. It's easy to turn inward and go. You know this will never work. I'm not going to ever get to a place where I can be healthy and whole.
Speaker 2:And it's easy to turn inward because even you know we look for the instant results too, and are you willing to be kind and patient with yourself, to say this is a process and there will be a day that I can look back and realize that I'm responding totally differently than I would have three months ago and and things don't look as dark and bleak as they did three months ago.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's so good, so good. Kyle, thank you. Thanks for thanks for your life and your example to us, married and singles, and thanks for bringing your experience to us today. Lord, thanks that you love us and that we are collectively your bride, whether married or single. Lord, that you're with us when we're lonely and that you have given us desire and you've given it to us because, in the end, ultimately, lord, you desire to meet our desire and more. Lord, help us to lift our eyes to that day. We pray these things in Jesus' name. Amen.
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