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Becoming Whole
Relationships and sexuality are areas of life that can be beautiful or confusing, life-giving, or painful. Becoming Whole is a conversational podcast for men, women, and families seeking to draw nearer to Jesus as they navigate topics like sexual integrity, relational healing, spiritual health, and so much more.
Becoming Whole
Reclaiming God's Design for Sexuality in a Pornified World
The digital world has transformed parenting in profound ways, creating unprecedented challenges for families navigating sexuality and technology. In this eye-opening conversation, Jacob Volk, Co-Executive Director of Into the Light Ministries, brings clarity and hope to parents feeling overwhelmed by these complex issues.
"The average child is exposed to explicit content at age eight," Volk reveals, underscoring why conversations about sexuality can't wait. But rather than approaching this reality with fear, he offers a compassionate framework balancing protection with preparation. Parents today face what he calls a "triple challenge" – the inherent difficulties of parenting, the pervasiveness of pornography, and the complexity of managing ever-evolving technology.
For parents who discover their teens are already struggling with pornography, Volk offers hope through stories of families who've navigated these challenges toward restored relationships. His message resonates with grace: it's never too late to begin these conversations, even if it requires acknowledging past hesitation or mistakes.
Perhaps most powerfully, Volk reminds us that sexuality is God's beautiful design, not the distorted version our culture presents. By reclaiming this territory from "the devil's turf," parents have the opportunity to guide their children toward a healthy, integrated understanding of sexuality as sacred rather than shameful.
Ready to better equip yourself for these crucial conversations? Visit these resources below and begin transforming how your family approaches these essential topics.
Treading Boldly through a Pornographic World
Free Resources to help you on your journey to Becoming Whole
👉Men's Overcoming Lust & Temptation Devotional
👉Women 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Women overcoming unwanted sexual Behavior)
👉Compass 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Wives who are or have been impacted by partner betrayal)
Hey everybody, welcome back, super eager to get in today's conversation. It is a heartbeat of mine, a heartbeat of our ministry, but, both because of the work that I do and because I'm a dad, we want to talk today to parents about the issue of pornography and sexuality and raising kids in this sexually confused culture. And my guest today is Jacob Volk. He is a. Am I saying your last name, right? Oh, yeah.
Speaker 1:You got it Nice, okay, I like that. Um, jacob, tell us like, without, without, without boring us with your Vita right off the the the backs. I'll ask you more questions but, like you are, you're getting your PhD and you got to tell people what you're doing PhD in. I think this is fascinating.
Speaker 2:Well, so so maybe, maybe I gotta, I gotta lead into that. There's so many things. Um, you, you know this because of the work you do. You know pornography is one of the biggest house fires in the church and so once you recognize that, you kind of have a handful of things you can do about it and, for whatever reason, god wired me to want to dive into the thorniest problems I can find and try and be helpful, and so we'll talk a bunch about pornography and parenting and stuff.
Speaker 2:But then I'm currently at Southern Seminary working on my PhD in another thorny, messy, difficult topic of modesty. So I'm fascinated by beauty, by embodiment, by our sexuality, by attraction, how we clothe ourselves, how we steward our bodies in the public sphere, the sexual revolution, purity, culture. It's a giant mess of difficult things and, I think, heartache for a lot of people, a lot of parents, a lot of like girls and guys trying to navigate their way, you know, through later teens and earlier teens. Even so, yeah, that's, that's sort of a, it's kind of like it's that's the jake. That's more as me as a, as an academic, doing my best in a sphere, and it's related but slightly distinct from my, my role as the executive director of into the light, but they complement each other. Sexual ethics is always. That's that's the world I live in and it's it's a real privilege to learn about God's beautiful design for sexuality and families and everything that comes from that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, what I love about that and I think I mean I love it just in general, because it's an important topic and we should have you back on at some point to talk about that- yeah, not for about five years, please, okay, okay.
Speaker 1:All right, shoot me an email in five years, all right. Or talking about pornography or any of that stuff, in a very kind of one dimensional approach, thou shalt not, or a wait until marriage, or whatever, and it really is so much more than that. And so I just, even in your kind of that level of interest, in like addressing modesty, I think it reveals like you're you're thinking more broadly, more deeply, more integratively, which we need and parents need. So, if you're a parent, listening, keep listening. If you're not a parent, you're like, okay, this podcast isn't for me. Maybe I should have said this two minutes ago. But, like, if you're not a parent, listening, listen anyway.
Speaker 1:Because I will say, personally, these conversations do so much to help me grow, both in looking back to, well, what was it like for me when I was a kid and what did I get and how might that have formed me or misformed me, um, but also then like, how do I move forward? So all right. So, jacob, let me, let me just dive in, um, uh, we are the, we're really kind of moving beyond, but we're pretty close to the first generation of of parents raising kids in a, in a sexually, um, just full, uh, culture in your face culture and and a digitally connected culture, a culture where technology is not something that's just at the home, it's in our pockets, it is a part of our lives. Um, parents are raising kids in situations where, like, if I could, if I could, keep you from technology, I would. But really this the school requires it, church is requiring it to have friendships requires it, so holy cow. Um, so how? How should parents be thinking about technology? Like, let's just start there yeah, so, uh, do you?
Speaker 2:are you thinking more technology more broadly or specifically in, like the world of sexuality, like the intersection that is sexuality and pornography?
Speaker 1:Yeah, wherever you want to go with it. Like yeah, certainly, certainly because of our topic today. Like let's get into sexuality stuff. But if there's, if there's something more broadly than that, like you know, fill us in.
Speaker 2:No, we'll dive into that. I think the first thing that I always, when I'm thinking about this, I lead with is sympathy for parents, because when it comes to pornography, this whole problem is three interrelated difficult problems. First of all, it's parenting that's difficult and complex and hard and a huge responsibility. That's difficult and complex and hard and a huge responsibility. And then it's pornography, like one of the most, um, pervasive addictive sin struggles that we've seen at least. The unique nature of online pornography. It's like it's unlike any, like particularly sexual deviance that the church really is that just struggle with. And then it's a technology problem. It's like it's the routers that you have in your home, it's the smartphones, it's apps, it's VPNs, it's all of these things, and each one of those is meaningfully difficult to deal with on its own, and but then together it just becomes, I think, a lot of parents and maybe rightly so just feel overwhelmed trying to navigate that, and so that's something.
Speaker 2:When we're really grappling with this problem, you know, years about a year and a half ago, as we're, you know, working on the research side leading up to the two resources we made, we just wanted to make sure we really try to make parents feel seen and understood because it's genuinely hard. That doesn't mean that we as parents can abrogate our responsibility. It's like these are the children God has given you in this world. Every age has its problems and God calls parents to be responsible where they're at. But it's hard and so there's sort of a few kind of posture points, perspectives and this. This is done really well, like in the, in the series that the video series masterclass that we made. It starts off with Abby Halberstadt and Albert Moeller, two really great speakers who really kind of helped frame this issue for parents of being like, hey, this is difficult but you've got this. Like technology more broadly is good, like it's this really good gift that God's given us. We don't want to run away from it, but we also want to be sober minded, knowing that there's more danger points than most people realize and they're really really deep, that they're really bad.
Speaker 2:And pornography, like the porn industry unapologetically, is targeting a new demographic, a new up and coming generation of clientele, because they need it and they're the most sophisticated marketing engines the world's ever seen. It's and it's not close. My background is in marketing and, like I'm really familiar with how smart um that the people are behind like a multi-trillion dollar industry, and so it's like it's a hard thing, you know, as you're, as we're talking to parents, it's like you don't want to do. The fear-mongering thing and I think that was a big tactic with pornography for a while was just like fear, fear, fear, fear, fear. Just hurl like at parents and at strugglers, just everything that's bad and it's bad and and. But also not be too like happy, clappy, hope, like you want to get something in the middle and and that's yeah, that's what we're trying to do. So I don't know if that directly answered your question, but that's one of the things that I think about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I love the compassion, I love the, the, those three categories, and it's just helpful to kind of go. Oh, that's why I feel so overwhelmed. The other thing is you, as you're talking about not abrogating our responsibility, what comes to mind for me is how I think, in many ways, modern parents in the West have have kind of been formed in the idea that, um, parenting and home life is separate from, from my, my primary responsibility of doing work, which is a and it and it kind of. In some ways, I think what you're, what you're doing, is you're calling us back to no like back in the day when you had your farm or your, you know, your, your shop or whatever. It was where you lived and so you were parenting while you were doing everything else, and so, and that was the way it was.
Speaker 1:And in some ways I mean, I remember you're probably too young for this, but watching leave it to beaver when I was growing up, and that was. It was an old show and I was growing up, but you know the dad would go to work and then come home. So in some ways, I think what you're calling us to is hey, this is we we're living in, it is in our homes, Like, it's not like just out there. And so let's, let's take up the the, the mantle, the calling and do what we can to raise kids in this world with these three factors that are there now, they're happening, yeah.
Speaker 2:Totally and even building off that. One of the beautiful things is you can do it like I think there's sort of this little pervasive lie that the devil worms into these to parents as they're thinking through this this kind of defeatist like just I can't, I can't, I can't stop my kids, I can't keep my kids from encountering pornography which you can't, but that's that's. We'll have that conversation. But like it's just, I can't make my home safe, I can't. Like it's just there's just a losing battle, and the reality is that's not true.
Speaker 2:Like you can raise your children to love God's good design, to understand in age-appropriate categories what sexuality is, what pornography is, and you can make your home remarkably safe from explicit material and steward both your parental responsibilities and the technology in your home well. And God is sovereign, we know that, and there's no carte blanche to the perfect kids. Every parent knows that. But you can do this well and I think that's something. There's a hope there that, like the Bible has given us the resources we need in order to navigate this, and so it just takes smarter Christians than me really thinking through this well, and that's the whole basis of our ministry is we collect those smarter Christians and put them all together in the same room and build a resource that ties all of it together and makes it helpful for parents All right.
Speaker 1:So I want to get specifically into kind of parents raising kids and talking about sexuality and talk about pornography, um so, but I think you're giving us a great pivot point here. Um, we'll have links to these in the show notes, but also give us a quick flyover of like these. You have these two new video course resources. One's a master class and one, I think. The second one, I think, really speaks into what you're talking about, about creating a safe home, which is a tutorial. So just give us a quick fly over both of those and maybe it's um, yeah, yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 2:So oh yeah, I mean this is what I get most excited about, right Cause we're we're our company, you know into the light ministries. We're a film company and so we we build resources and sexuality for the church, and so the unique nature of what we do is we basically hibernate forever working on a massive film project that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars, and then build it all and then sort of explode like, wake up and be like hi guys, remember us, we've made some more things, and so it's really fun to have them done free for parents to watch and on our website, which is intothelightministriesca. But sorry, answer your actual question. We built two resources for parents in this topic. The first one is Parenting and Pornography. It's a nine episode masterclass series that walks parents through God's like how to talk to their children about God's good design for sexuality and the dangers of pornography, and so it includes some really amazing voices like Abby Halberstadt, jonathan Holmes, albert Moeller, justin Whitmore, early Dr Andrew Walker, julie Lowe lots of theologians, pastors, biblical counselors really helping parents navigate this topic well. Age-appropriateians pastors, biblical counselors really helping parents navigate this topic well. Age-appropriate categories safety in the home. It's a really good theological and practical foundation and we can dive into the specifics, like who talks about what and what the kind of arc is, because I also know I know you're a big process guy. We talked in some other conversation. We talked about you guys when you were structuring your book Treading Boldly which is an amazing book, by the way. It was really helpful for us when we were writing. But yeah, that's the Masterclass series Really, I think, giving parents a foundation of these topics, of how to talk to your children about it, of how to talk to your children about it.
Speaker 2:And then when we realized, really in the process of making this, that it was good. But we had this glaring problem of, like the smart home, the smart TVs, the laptops, the tablets, the phones in everyone's home, that is a highway to the most explicit content the world's ever seen. In seconds, right Like right now, a four-year-old can pick up a phone and access more explicit content in three taps than the most devious monarch in ages past could have done in a lifetime of trying. And so we we were like that's something we want to approach with with clarity and try and be helpful for parents. So we built another resource.
Speaker 1:Good and, by the way, was was that because that that um four-year-old three tap monarchy like monarch like you have had to have said that line before you. It came out of your mouth Like it was nothing. Tell me, is that in your back pocket that was?
Speaker 2:so this is, yeah, um, this is one of the one of the one of the things. You're a writer, you get this john michael, and so I'm I'm half of into the light ministries. My other half is john michael bout, who, uh, who was going to be here, but they had a baby literally 12 hours ago, so he knows something about sexuality.
Speaker 1:I love it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know we, um, our joke is that he's the practitioner and I'm the theoretician, because I'm not married yet, so, but the two of us have a deep, deep love for the craft of writing, and so we have spent hours and hours and hours flat on our backs on a couch, looking at the sky, trying to find the right verbs and the right nouns and the right order to try and articulate something that we're so passionate about. And if you can paint a story that, I mean, this is what Jesus was a master at, of not just saying, hey, do good things, but painting a picture that, at the end, made the truth punch you in the gut, and so, if you can do that well, the truth punch you in the gut. And so, if you can, if you can do that well, um, I hope, I hope, we hope we can serve parents by telling stories that are, that are meaningful, even in just the way we talk about the stuff we do. Yeah, love it.
Speaker 1:Love it and I hope you heard that as a compliment but, yeah, but. I did interrupt you cause you were getting into the second resource which I'm very intrigued by. Tell us about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, uh, so, uh. Every parent. If you're listening to this in your home right now, just do do a 360 degree turn and look at all the devices that are in your home. You would be probably unless you've been thinking about this for a while you'll probably be shocked to find out how many access points to pornography there are. Your smart tv has a browser on it and you can look up anything, and so, recognizing that, we built a series we called TechSafe, and TechSafe is 11, I think it's 11, laser sharp tutorials that walk through all the devices in your home and helps you shut them down and make them safe your smart TVs, laptops, gaming consoles, your watches, smart watches and basically helps parents just from the ground up, go like what is this device?
Speaker 2:How was basically?
Speaker 2:What's it doing? How is information flowing in, flowing out, and what do you? What resources do you have as a parent that allow you to make that a device safe, to give to a four year old-old, a nine-year-old, a 15-year-old, and then think through what you need to do to each of those devices to be safe at that level. And so we wanted this to be as boots on the ground, practical for parents as possible, and we did the best we could.
Speaker 2:It's like, oh, it's basically two and a half hours total of tutorials and we have it staged really well. So there's like an oh, it's basically two and a half hours total of tutorials and we have it staged really well. So there's like an opening video parents can watch that really kind of gives them some of the foundation, like almost like a toolbox, to then go and apply it to each of those devices. And, by the grace of God, one of the things he's let us do is crowdfund all of our resources. So we have a really great team, growing team of supporters who really believe in making these resources so they're free, both the Parenting, and Pornography series and TechSafe series are free at intothelightministriesca and I hope everyone goes and watches them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, awesome, awesome, love that, jacob. Okay, so I I'm imagining some parents like me go hold on, hold on, like that, the re, the resource about, like this is how to button up the um, the devices in my home. I think one of the things that I've heard for years is yeah, but things are changing so quickly. Like how can you create a resource, like is this going to be a good resource in six months? And I mean when the next thing comes out like how did you guys address that? Yeah, and I mean when the next thing comes out like how?
Speaker 2:did you guys address that? Yeah, yeah, okay, that was John. John, michael and I talk often as we walk, right, you know, walk and talk. That's a probably like a 20 or 30 mile question of like road that we've burned, trying to figure out how to get that right and it turns out it's a resolution. So, um, like, for example so I can do this with an analogy Wi-Fi carries information, love.
Speaker 2:That that's a great fact. That's going to stand the test of time for a long, long time. It's also not the most helpful thing. Like cool, there's a concept, you got it in your brain, but like, wi-fi carries information, okay, what do I do with that? The? And then that's at one end of the spectrum. The other end is press the power up button button on your insert name here router, spin it around, flip it over, read the bar like and now we're like, we're at, like I'm literally walking you through step by step on a device that you can see in your hand.
Speaker 2:That is really, really, really, really helpful, but will be outdated in like the next model of whatever device that is, and it doesn't generalize as well across devices. So what we did is we mapped. This is getting so much more technical than most people need, but it's the technicality we did in order to then build something more helpful. We found the sweet spot in giving really practical boots on the ground. Hold the device in your hand level concepts that are just shy of the walking you through what buttons to press. But then we give further resources underneath each video that link out to constantly updated websites that we really like.
Speaker 2:That do give you some of those specific things, and one of the big things we encourage parents to do is, like you know, let's say you have a PlayStation, a PS5, playstation 5, it's a gaming console.
Speaker 2:You would be surprised at the parental resources that are in that device already that the makers of playstation were pretty thoughtful in trying to set up for you, and they didn't make them for tech wizards, they made them for actual parents. So once you know that and you're encouraged to just go set a timer, just take, give it 20 minutes, sit down, grab the gaming thing and just just a look, just look, thumb through those, see what's there, experiment with a few things. You're already 75% of the way just by getting involved with the device and doing your best to figure things out and then, if you know, that's there, and you also know about Wi-Fi level security, and that's something you've been thinking about. Now you're already thinking of two levels of safety for that device and you're you're already in a really good place to start setting up a device like that safely, and it just takes like the knowledge that it's there and you can start doing it, and with time it's able to be figured out, and so that's the kind of thing we're thinking through with these devices.
Speaker 1:Love it, I love it, yeah Again. So, going back to my agrarian illustration earlier, I think, like for for anybody listening who goes, yeah, but I'm just not like good at that. Okay, look, you know, 150 years ago, if you weren't good at plowing a field, you had to do it anyway because you need to eat. And I think we're. I think we're at that level of importance when it comes to these kinds of things with parenting. All right. So let's shift gears.
Speaker 1:Let's talk about pornography, let's talk about talking to our kids, because one of the things that my co-author said in our book that I think you'd agree with is it's not a good parenting move just to set it and forget it. So, say you get your home buttoned up as best you can with the resource you've provided. There's still parenting to do, there's still discipleship to do. So you guys make the claim that it's important to talk to your kids early about sex and it's important to talk to them early about pornography. Just unpack that. Talk a little bit about what's early. What do you mean by that? Why is that? Wherever you want to go with that question?
Speaker 2:Totally. I love that question, but first, like this, I'm just being super genuine. People should buy your book if they haven't already. There's few Treading Boldly. That you and Daniel Weiss wrote is a really good resource. Like we read copious amounts of everything in preparation for writing this series. Art, like the. The Google sheets document of all of our resources is like hundreds of books long. Your book is really good. It's a really good just like any parent can pick it up. You guys are really kind, thoughtful and convictional and like it. It's one of the handful of books that I instantly recommend. We and we do in our leader's guide that we're almost finished creating for the series. We recommend your book a bunch of times that parents should read it. It's really helpful.
Speaker 1:See, I knew I wanted you on this podcast. I just knew I wanted you on this podcast.
Speaker 2:This is just the fun thing about being in this space for me is like how team oriented it all is you. Everybody else we've worked with is like, how about let's help parents have the kids not watch porn? I don't know, I'm team that, you're team, that it's great, so I love shooting more resources to people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, anyways, it answers your actual go ahead and going back to the agrarian illustration again, like in that day you could not make it alone and we can't make it alone today, Like we really need each other. The day of the siloed parent, the day of the Christian I mean, Christianity has never been to be siloed anyway but the day that, like you know, you kind of raise your own family and worry about yourself, Like it just doesn't work, it's not working. It's not going to work now. We need you, you know we need each other. So, yeah, All right. So so back to the question.
Speaker 2:Thank you again To uh in in the the. The refrain that the that's all the speakers throughout our entire parenting and pornography series say is those two words early and often. And so what does early look like? And one of the things that's been helpful for me is a lot of parents are scared to talk about this topic with their kids early because they don't want to damage their kids, they don't want to give them something too heavy to carry too early, and I really sympathize with that. Like we have this intuitive understanding that sex is this weighty, beautiful thing. It might be the most sacred thing this side of eternity because what it represents the Christ, church, union, marriage, like there's so much packed into that. And so I think there's something worth grieving a little bit in saying you might have to err on the side of earlier and give a younger child a little more to grapple with than in other ages you might have been able to, and just being like, yeah, that's maybe a bit sad.
Speaker 2:There was a time where you could let, like your agrarian example, you could let the barnyard animals and their example get enough of the categories in and then wait till the kids were 12, 13 to really keep those conversations. That's a good thing, and that's not the world we live in now and right now. The average age of exposure to the most graphic sex the world has ever seen is eight years old, and so parents must be clearly talking to their children about this topic at that age, or you're going to let everything in the world disciple your children about this before that and so and we know that parents are the authority, like God has given you the authority to love your children in this area. So, having said that, that doesn't mean you need to full send, on the whole, all the information as soon as they hit eight years old, because one of the cool things about and the video series really unpacks a lot of this there are categories about what it means to be human that you can tell two-year-olds, three-year-olds, four-year-olds, four-year-olds. That will then make the more explicit conversations about what is sex. You know bodily parts, what does that mean later? So much easier. So you can tell a two-year-old and three-year-old hey, your body is good. God made it Like. Your whole body is just really beautiful, created thing from God. Mom and dad, like us, being married husbands, wives, those are good things. Your body parts, the private ones that we cover with underwear and bathing suits. Those are good, but they're special good and they're a kind of good that only mom and dad can help you with. These are some like scripts that you can talk to, and so they're starting to get categories early without needing to necessarily tie all those things together and then so there's lots of things in there that you can help really young with.
Speaker 2:And then the other thing and you guys talk about this in your book a lot of parents, you know we've been kind of had this idea of the talk. You know air quotes the talk and I get why people. Again, it keys into this idea that sex is this really beautiful thing, to kind of make it an event when you talk about it with your children. There's something good there. But I think, on balance, framing like the whole conversation as the talk has some really big pitfalls, because what it does is it kind of removes the conversations about sexuality from real life and makes it this kind of thing that then is hard to integrate back into the rhythms of your life. And so well said, if you, if you can say you know to your, if you can think about it and say you know what I going to have a bunch of conversations with my kids, just keeping touching base with this topic, asking if they have questions, letting them know things. Not only does that make it like, uh, I can talk to my mom and dad about this kind of whenever I need to, which is a really good thing, but it also takes the stress off. So if you were talking to your kids about sexuality and you kind of felt like you botched that conversation, it's okay, talk to them next week, like it. Just it takes all this weight of like when do I have this explosion of truth with my children? And just goes it's okay, make this part of the rhythms of as your kids growing up, telling them what they need to know and letting them know. You can talk to me about this. If you have questions, I'm the one you can come to and I'll give you answers. Even if I don't have them right now, I'll get back to you and make it a safe place.
Speaker 2:An example is this my mom did a really good job with this. I remember when she she so she talked to me about what sexuality was, her mom and my dad both sat down and they explained it to me and I was like, whoa, okay, that's crazy. And and then my mom followed up and just said hey, remember that conversation we had. Just curious, did you have any questions about it? Happy to. If you have any questions, you come talk to me. I'm like, yep, whatever, mom, that's cool, but I knew I was like I can go to mom and ask her, that's fine. And then another time she said, hey, there's these pictures of people. Remember we talked about sex. Well, some people have sex and then take videos of themselves and put it on the internet. And I was like I remember so distinctly, thinking why the heck would anyone? That is so weird. 11-year-old me was like what it's bizarre? And mom was like, don't worry about it, just to let you know that exists. And if you ever see it, come and tell me. I won't be angry at you. But Christians should not watch those kinds of things. So it's out there, but you shouldn't watch it and let me know if you see it. And I was like, yeah, okay, sounds good.
Speaker 2:Later, when I started realizing why someone would watch that, I knew two things. One, I shouldn't. Two, even though I was tempted, we had covenant eyes and I knew, and I knew ever since every device we had in the entire home. I knew mom could see what I looked at and I wasn't going to risk it. Later on, still later teens, I started becoming very grateful because I had friends who were watching porn and, like struggling, we would talk about that and I was like I don't want to get into that mess.
Speaker 2:So my personal story is that I never I never struggled with pornography because I had a parent who was was, by the grace of God, really, really careful. That's not, and that's not to say I have another friend, john Michael. His parents were also very careful and very thoughtful and he did struggle with pornography for a decade. So God doesn't you know, god doesn't God's sovereign and God is good, and we have different stories. But that's just, that's just kind of my thoughts of like saying you can do stuff, parents and and yeah, and God can equip you to steward this well.
Speaker 1:I love I mean just to draw this out for parents listening like, um, your mom brought it up, asked if you had questions, so it was in your court, but also didn't just leave it in your court, came back again, went a little deeper, went a little different.
Speaker 1:Um, it sounds just by the way you reiterated it. There was a tone that was non-threatening, non-scary, non-scared. Um, so you knew, like, man, you know this. Uh, I think sometimes when we come, we come, you know, big and boisterous, or scared. What inevitably we communicate to our kids is you're going to freak me out if you bring it up or we make our kids scared, and then they're like, oh, this is scary, I don't want to bring this up or something, something worse.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I love the winsomeness of that and the consistency of it and I appreciate too I want to just kind of come back to this because I never thought of this before and I think it's so, um, helpful that there, that it's actually legitimate for parents to to grieve, that we live in such a culture that we have to bring some of these really important things up and some of these really hard things up, uh, to kids who we may find really struggle or grapple with what we're, what we're sharing. And, um, uh, you can tell, I kind of always go back out to like other other illustrations, but I think probably be akin to like, well, what do we do if, if our village is, you know, has been invaded by dangerous people. Like I don't want to tell my kids that the world's a dangerous place or a scary place, but it's really important for their good that we talk about these things, even when they're young, because I can't parent them the way I want to and look out for them the way I want to in this environment. So I just appreciate the sensitivity to yeah, is that sad for you parents? Like, yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 1:I don't think I'd even kind of faced my own sadness about, about that and we wrote a book about it, you know. So, yeah, um, yeah, so thank you for that. Um, so you, you kind of gave us some pretty early on stuff for talking to kids. Um, can you, can you get a little bit like go go a little bit further into some of the um, kind of young adolescent?
Speaker 1:um we're going to talk to our kids about porn. You have the example what your mom said to you, which I think is I mean it was concise, it was clear um, love that. What else would you say to parents of, of kids kind of, who are in that teenage years maybe, especially when, um, what did your expert say when desire starts to kind of get ignited, a bit like any guidance, guidance for parents there?
Speaker 2:Totally, totally. It's hard to like. I'm, I'm, I'm just. I come at this with. I sit in a very interesting position where I'm half the parent I mean, I'm not a parent yet, but I'm old enough to be half the parent and I'm half the kid like I remember very clearly what it was like to be 16, 17, 18 and navigating these issues and and feeling like the temptation to want to like. But it's funny, we were, we have like official, we have some really great partnerships with covenant eyes. Now I loathed covenant eyes.
Speaker 2:When I was a teen I spent so much time trying to get around it, not necessarily because I actually wanted to look at explicit material, but because I just wanted to look at things that Kamen Oni has blocked because they weren't as sophisticated then that weren't really bad, but like, like, like there's a whole, a whole thing in there and now I'm like Kamen Oni is amazing, I love them, they're so great. So it's like I remember that and I just know what I can really hear a lot of parents fear in a lot of this when they're especially with a kid, who, with a child who they're like. I know my kids watching porn and I know they want nothing to do with the, with the rules and stuff that I want to put in place. That's tough, and to that parent specifically, I'm kind of bouncing around, but to that parent specifically I would be like, hey, like you are still the parent.
Speaker 2:One of the I think one of the cultural, one of the worst cultural lies that is invading these kinds of conversations is the idea that parents don't have response, not only responsibility, or the authority God's given, or the authority God's given you, the authority to shepherd your children in whatever way you think is best, and like. Parents need to have that convictional steel and, hopefully, support to know that if you want to make, if you feel like it would be wise, with prayer, with counsel, to make radical decisions around technology for your 16 or 17 year old, do it because you love them. You do know what's best for them. You're way older than they are and and and. It's going to be hard, but you have to stand before god one day, doing the best that you were able to, and and and. Don't be afraid to do that. Um, yeah, that's, that's, that's one direction go, go ahead.
Speaker 1:Let me just add one thing just from my experience. So so, in walking with adult men and women in our ministry for the last 20 something years, like I've never met any, any client, any person um who wishes their mom or dad, um wished a worse relationship with their mom and dad, even those who had terrible relationships with their parents and whose parents were very abusive. The pain they walk with today because they wish their mom and dad was more present, more attuned, more loving that kind of stuff. So, yeah, I mean I just I wanna speak as a word of affirmation to parents, like your kids. Actually, however you're doing, however, like whatever rupture there is in a relationship, however toxic it is, your kids way down deep really want a great relationship with you. Yeah, but do what it takes to to get there and and and, yeah, for that reason alone, but also so that you can be the parent in some of these bigger conversations.
Speaker 1:So, all right, I took it from you, but go back to yeah no, no, building off of that.
Speaker 2:So now we're in, like, like there's, there's lots of different, lots of different parents. We could talk about Lots of different places their children are at in relation to where the parents are at. A snapshot at them at 17, 18, with their parents still living at home. Disaster parents doing their best to shut down devices to set up safeguards, having those conversations, discovering them with pornography um, disaster, fast forward three years. Really, restored relationship that kids who have, who on their own volition joined accountability groups, tried, put porn to death and came back to their parents with gratitude that their parents like toughed out, saying like had the consistency of porn is wrong and we're not going to tolerate. Uh, we're going to, we're going to be helpful. So it's not just like a prohibition without any more. But you, watching pornography is not a place. We're staying, we're moving, we're trying to help you and love you, and maybe that's tough love, and I know so many stories of really, really beautiful, then French, you know kind of the older child parent friendships. That were the stories of the years afterwards, and so it's possible, if any parents are there right now, just set your hope that you could have that restored relationship with your child, but quickly, maybe to some of the other parents.
Speaker 2:I think a lot of parents I mean, tell me what you think about this there's probably a lot of parents who their kids are teenagers, late teens, early teens and they're probably thinking, gosh, I don't, I haven't really talked about any of this and like, I think we're good, like I've got good relationships with my kids, but this is just a whole new. I don't even know where to start. And I think where to start, if I may be cheeky, is to go watch our masterclass video series Not cheeky at all, not cheeky at all. That's good. But I think to them, you could see, I think there's something powerful with kids of the right age to sit down and say, hey, you're 15. You know what sex is and you know, you know what pornography is too. Um, let we just let's just be frank about that. I owe you an apology. I wish I had talked to you more. I wish I'd been a better parent, um, for for in this area of life and I haven't had conversations, I wish I had, um, but I would like to have some conversations now.
Speaker 2:Um, that's, that's a hard thing to do. It takes humility. There's that's going to be awkward as all get out Like I for sure. But there's something I there's something really powerful, I think, for, uh, for someone who's younger, hearing those kinds of conversations and then start to ask them genuine questions about how they're doing and and do so with the knowledge that it's entirely likely we just know the stats. It's entirely likely that your teenager is struggling with pornography, guy or girl, if you, if it's not a conversation you've had, it's more likely that they've well, it's guaranteed they've encountered pornography and it's more than less likely that they're struggling with it to some degree. So, going into a conversation knowing that that's the case and also it's hard and there's so much more there, that's situation specific and I'm sure you've got you probably have some more well-formed thoughts than I have, but try.
Speaker 1:Maybe that's maybe the biggest one to parents.
Speaker 2:Just try, you know, yeah, I love it.
Speaker 1:I love it. Jacob, this, our podcast format is is insufficient, but that's great news, because people should check out your resource, which is hours and hours and hours of of content. So, but I do want to give you kind of the like um, as we're wrapping up, is there something? Oh, I really wanted to say this, or the one more thing I'd really want to throw in? Um, uh, I'd love to give you the opportunity that before we, before we wrap, I don't think so.
Speaker 2:This is. This has been a really fun, fun conversation. I really enjoyed this. I would just be like I'd say to parents like every, the majority of anything having to do with sexuality that you've encountered in the last couple years, almost all of it has been on the devil's turf. Every billboard you've seen, every advertisement, you've seen every crude joke, almost all of our experience of sexuality I mean, apart from actually having sex, the public sphere of sexuality is all the devil's turf, and we can be inculcated to think about sex.
Speaker 2:When we think sex, we can intuit pornography. We hear good and feel and think distortion. Try and reclaim that. God made sexuality, god invented marriage, god made this beautiful thing, and it's easy to forget that. But, like, when we're talking about this concept of sexuality, we're talking about one of the most beautiful gifts God's given us, and so try and realize that yourself, and then it's from that knowledge of the good and the beautiful that we have a better understanding of all the distortions and the importance of talk to your kids about this.
Speaker 2:Set your vision of like, wanting to talk to your children about this thing, to shepherd them in this way so that, by the grace of God, they can walk down an aisle one day, having not made some of the mistakes that maybe you as a parent have made. And so, if you're, as a parent, even if you're feeling like I'm terrified of this topic because of the mistakes I've made, know that A we're Christians here. God has forgiven you as far as the East is from the West. That's how far your sins are, and last I checked, that's really far. God loves you and he's empowered you to be able to have those conversations with your kids. So go do that.
Speaker 1:Go do it come on mic, drop right there. You literally said before you said that you said no, I think this has been a good conversation. And then you said, well, I think I'd say, and then that was like I'm over here, like because it's you know, I don't want to talk over you because we got, you know, mics going on stuff, but I want to just be like yes, yes, like that, like I love. I mean, it is so true, like there's so much of this on the devil's turf, our regular experience on the devil's turf, um, but this is not his stuff, it's God's. I love that. What a great way to. And, jacob, we will have your information, um, into the lights information and these resource information on our in the show notes. Please check it out and and be praying for this brother and John Michael too, as they do the hibernating good work they're doing. Are you guys hibernating now? Are you working on something, something new? Are you? Are you spending?
Speaker 2:your time getting this out. We have so many things in the cauldron right now Lots of John Michael. He's the wise one, so he would have his hands over my mouth if I say too much. What I can say is there's topics that we're going to explore next. Probably dating and pornography is the next, that whole conversation. So as a ministry, we exist to serve the church. We want to equip parents. So if you want to kind of keep in contact with what we do, follow us on Instagram and join our mailing list. We don't spam people, but we just want to keep people up to date on what we're doing.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, into the Light Ministries. We're grateful for you guys, jesus. We pray for the parents listening. No shame, lord. No shame, just your love, your invitation to something better. And we do pray, lord, for Jacob and for John Michael, that you would bless and keep them and guide them in the paths you have for them. I pray all this in Jesus' name, amen, amen.
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