Becoming Whole
Relationships and sexuality are areas of life that can be beautiful or confusing, life-giving, or painful. Becoming Whole is a conversational podcast for men, women, and families seeking to draw nearer to Jesus as they navigate topics like sexual integrity, relational healing, spiritual health, and so much more.
Becoming Whole
The Man Within
What if the solution to overcoming pornography addiction isn't found in behavior modification but in healing your heart? In this episode, Sathiya Sam shares how addressing the root causes of unwanted sexual behavior leads to genuine freedom that behavior-focused approaches simply can't deliver.
Sathiya, the architect behind Deep Clean—a program that has helped thousands of men overcome pornography addiction—reveals his personal 15-year battle with porn that began at age 11. His journey from struggle to freedom led him to develop an approach combining biblical wisdom with scientific research that targets what lies beneath the surface of compulsive sexual behavior.
Ready to move beyond surface solutions? Listen now to discover how true freedom begins below the waterline.
Resources:
For more information or to join click one of the links below.
Manna - Men seeking freedom from unwanted sexual behavior, temptation, and shame.
Oasis - Women seeking freedom from unwanted sexual behavior, temptation, and shame.
Compass - Wives seeking healing from betrayal and broken trust.
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Free Resources to help you on your journey to Becoming Whole
👉Men's Overcoming Lust & Temptation Devotional
👉Women 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Women overcoming unwanted sexual Behavior)
👉Compass 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Wives who are or have been impacted by partner betrayal)
Well, welcome back to the Becoming Whole podcast. My name is Aaron Taggart, I'm one of our spiritual coaches at Regeneration and we have a very exciting episode for you today. I'm joined by a very special guest. He's been called an architect of mature masculinity. He's a coach, a speaker, an author, who has built a movement around helping men overcome pornography and live with confidence and integrity. He is Sathya Sam. Sathya is a creator of Deep Clean, which is a biblically grounded, research-based program that helps thousands of men, from pastors and doctors to athletes and entrepreneurs, to find real and lasting freedom from pornography. Sathya, it is a gift to have you with us today. Welcome to Becoming Whole.
Speaker 2:Dude, that's quite the intro. I don't know about that man, I felt like a lot, but thank you. Thank you for having me here. I'm honored.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, the pleasure is definitely all mine and let's go ahead and dive in. I know some of our listeners probably aren't familiar with you, as our listenership are both men and women, but would you just maybe share a little bit about you know who you are, what you do and kind of how you got to where you're at today?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you know my story Helping Men Quit Porn pornography starts with my own journey. I was exposed to pornography in the computer lab of my Christian school when I was 11 years old, and that began a 15-year struggle, and I had two prayers during that struggle. One was God. If you help me figure this out, I will do everything in my power to help as many other men figure it out as well, and I feel like God honored that prayer.
Speaker 2:February 2016,. I had my what I call my last relapse, and I waited for several years. You know I had had longer bouts of freedom previously and then sort of fell back into it, although by the time I had reached this point in my journey, I really started to discover you know, a lot of the stuff you guys talk about, about what really addresses more the root causes of unwanted sexual behavior and compulsive sexual behavior and porn use, and so I knew that something was different. But I also wanted to be diligent and really make sure that I was equipped and fit to help other men in this area. December 2018 is when I launched Deep Clean and, yeah, it sort of started as a side hustle.
Speaker 2:I was full-time pastoring and prior to that, I had a full-time career as a university researcher and Deep Clean just felt like the conglomerate of those two arenas of my life my zeal for research and science, but also my passion for scripture and the word of God and pastoring people and so it started to grow quite a bit, especially during the pandemic. And, yeah, over the last several years we've been able to help a thousand plus men quit pornography. I've been able to champion a message that I would say is very again, very aligned with you guys, and it's why I'm so honored to be here today, because we really believe that true healing happens in the heart, not with an internet filter, not with bouncing the eyes, but something a little bit more underneath the surface. And that's what we're on mission to just help more people change more lives and also, hopefully, awaken the world to the harmful effects of pornography.
Speaker 1:Yeah, wow, man, that's incredible and it's so sad that, like in a school setting, you know you're, you were exposed and I know that's the case for for a lot. And in that industry right, I mean it's you know, research shows you know kids are being exposed to younger and younger and it's really through some of these you know sort of innocent, accidental kind of ways. But you know, on their part, but there are people behind it, right, that are very much, you know, kind of capitalizing on that innocence.
Speaker 2:Yeah, not an accident, not an accident for sure. And you know the average age of exposure is going down. I don't know how much further down it will go, but the one thing we know for sure is that the volume of content that kids are consuming at younger ages, and the intensity of that content, has really really upped significantly. I think of when I was first exposed. That was 2001. So pre-smartphone, early days of broadband internet, and not to say that all that stuff was wholesome, but it certainly was not the same level of intensity with aggression and violence that's in mainstream pornography today. So I consider myself very fortunate, and I think as well. The age of exposure is part of it, but there's a deeper story there and our kids really do need to be protected, otherwise there's gonna be more people like me, unfortunately.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, absolutely, and we can, you know, do our part to try to help with that and help men and women out of that and families here, you know, regen to enter into those types of conversations with their kids so that they can be the authority in their kids' lives, especially with their sexuality. So, yeah, thanks, man. So you were a pastor and then this was a side hustle you mentioned Deep Clean. Can you share a little bit more about what Deep Clean is, what, yeah, maybe more specifically, I know that you so kind of twofold what is Deep Clean. I know that you so kind of twofold like what is deep clean and pornography is really prevalent today among especially high achieving or spiritual men. So why do you think that is? And then you kind of use deep clean. So tell us a little bit about how those intersect.
Speaker 2:So when I was a teenager, I had a responsibility around the home and it was to take care of the grass. My parents have a huge yard and that was my one job, my one responsibility, and it was a beautiful, long, beautiful patch of grass, very easy to cut. But there was one little area, aaron, that was weedy and kind of scraggly looking and not really that nice. And as a 15-year-old, 16-year old kid, I knew that if I wanted to actually get rid of that, that area, and really have the whole patch of grass look proper, I needed to get to the roots, I needed to actually put on some gloves, dig that thing out and make sure that they would never grow back. But in my, my laziness, my 16 year old immaturity, I would just run over the weeds with the lawnmower again and again and again, and everything looked clean long enough, and then the weeds would grow back and you'd kind of just rinse and repeat. And what most people settle for today when we have these conversations about unwanted sexual behavior and compulsive disorders, is solutions that are no different than a lawnmower running over a weed. You know, if I tell you to bounce the eyes, that might temporarily solve a very small problem, but it's not really getting to the heart of the matter. So deep clean is really the embodiment of a philosophy that says, rather than trying to simply modify behavior, rather than trying to suppress and ignore the temptations and our sexual urges and desires, let's get more to the heart of the matter, because underneath the surface, in the roots, there's actually a lot of clues about what's really going on, why you're watching and, more importantly, what would actually be required for you to stop watching. And that's really what deep clean means. The idea is, we want to clean you from the inside out at a depth level. We don't just want to do it at the surface level with behavior solutions, and I'm not even really against the behavioral solutions, I just know that they're incomplete for people to really experience true healing and lasting freedom.
Speaker 2:And I think the reason like we've been very successful helping high achievers and entrepreneurs and professionals you know athletes and that kind of thing in large part because I think people that are more high achieving and especially that have climbed a corporate ladder or athletes, would be another great example. Most of their training is very physical and it's very visible, and so they've learned, they've learned to monitor results and they've learned to climb things based on what's seen. But the whole deep, clean philosophy is the inverse of that. It's really on focusing on what's unseen. And so I think you know we had an addiction physician if you can believe that, go through our program 12 years of education to help people with addictions, but more on the chemical substance abuse side, and he had never learned some of the stuff that we were teaching him.
Speaker 2:And that's not a knock on his med school or anything like that. It's more just to state that this philosophy is uncommon, even though you know you and I we talk about this stuff all the time. But I think a lot of the world still doesn't realize how much of our sexual behavior is rooted more in our hearts. And I think if we can help more people realize that and obviously help more people heal in their hearts, then that's what will make us successful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, man. I love that analogy of the mowing over weeds. I totally get that. Man. I live on seven and a half acres. It's mostly wooded but, man, just tons of spots of weeds and like thin places of growth and all that kind of stuff. And what you're saying about to really make that fix is you have to get in there, you have to get into that soil, into those roots. And it makes me think of Hosea 10.12 when it talks about break up your fallow ground. And breaking up that fallow ground, removing some field stones, removing some of these things that are impending the ability to have growth, what's needed, right, an influx of nutrients and all of that, all those good things that happen when you break up that ground. And so I love that analogy so much.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think it's tough because it is easier to run over the weeds with a lawnmower, it is easier to count streaks or, you know, to read a book and expect your life to turn around. And I think we've kind of been conditioned in our Western world to just get you know quick fixes and instant rewards. So I think that's actually what makes this so powerful. Is you think about why somebody watches pornography? They're looking for quick hits, they're looking for instant rewards, immediate gratification.
Speaker 2:And when you settle for a quick solution, like slapping on an internet filter as an example, you're really just reinforcing the parts of you that have been programmed for immediate reward. And so that whole breaking the fallow ground, there's an implicit patience, you know, there's an implicit endurance that is required. You have to kind of slow down to really make that process effective. And I think, even if our principles were completely wrong and our tools weren't really that effective, just the fact that we would be helping people get more to the heart of the issue, that slower, longer process, that in of itself is reprogramming and is healing for guys. And you know, once you throw in strategies that are shown to be effective and you have principles that are, you know anchored in scripture and research. Then all of a sudden you know a guy's life can turn around pretty quickly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely Right. I mean it's, you know the difference between you know, throwing a bandaid on something that actually maybe needs a little more kind of surgical attention, or a classic iceberg right, you see the tip of the iceberg, but there's so much going on underneath to really understand the magnanimity of that iceberg and why it's there. And if you don't address that lower part, you know, you just see those, that you know those smaller things, that that really aren't the, the, the issue that you need to be getting after.
Speaker 2:So yeah, yeah, and and people, I think like sometimes it's hard to connect the dots, like what one of our most downloaded episodes of all time on our podcast is called trigger diggers, which is this, this thing that we have in our, in our deep, clean coaching program, and the whole concept of trigger diggers is that if you pay attention to the things that tempt you and you, you follow this process, which is it's very simple, but you just have to ask a series of the right questions.
Speaker 2:Follow this process, which is it's very simple, but you just have to ask a series of the right questions, you can start to identify pretty quickly some core beliefs that are actually underneath our sexual compulsions and our misbehaviors. And people are shocked and I've had people come up to me after teaching this at conferences and they'll say you know, that was a really nice talk you gave. I just couldn't, I can't believe, I couldn't actually see how any of this, like some lies I believe, could actually be related to my use of pornography. You know it's hard to connect those dots because in our heads and in a lot of the messaging we've reduced pornography issues and sexual misbehaviors to just that, just behaviors. And yeah, when you start talking about, you know, getting underneath the water, the base of the iceberg. It's meatier, it's more complicated, but that's really where the best solutions and the most effective freedom lies.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it makes me think of this shame and negative self-talk in an individual, right, and then you know, like the individual maybe that came and said that to you, right it's, you know, it's like you know what the lies that we believe. You know the enemy wants us to believe about us, and the difference between shame and guilt, like I've done something bad versus I am bad, or I am fill in the blank and we're so good in the midst of that shame to fill in that, to fill in that blank with something negative, then shame is a driver, right? So then that's going to then lead us to want to well, now I want to numb that shame, I don't want to feel that, and then I'm back in that cycle and pattern again. So it's so important to to get after those you know pieces of of shame and the negative self-talk and the things that we we end up believing about ourselves that aren't true, because you know we felt those things for so long or we believe them for so long yeah, you can't out behave your beliefs.
Speaker 2:yeah, so you know, like the, I think that that's again. That's why the misnomer of just modifying behavior is such a fallacy, because the the beliefs that you have about yourself, you hit the nail on the head. We have three pillars in the Deep Clean system and our third pillar is shift your identity. And the whole premise is moving from that place of believing lies and reinforcing them to walking in truth. And the beautiful thing is, when you really do start to live in truth, then the behaviors will just take care of themselves. You don't even need to start modifying them. But I think again, if you're not paying attention to those deeper beliefs that are driving it, you will keep spinning your tires trying to modify behavior, not realizing that it's the beliefs that are driving this thing. And if you drive your attention there, you'll get much better results thing.
Speaker 1:And if you drive your attention there, you'll get much better results. Yeah, I love that. Identity is such a crucial, crucial part of that journey. In fact, we have a retreat coming up in October and our theme is going to be on identity.
Speaker 2:Just how important that is and on that journey, that recovery journey. So that's so good. Well, I love that you guys do retreats. It's one of the things that really stood out to me is you guys do a lot of group.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of like communal elements and connection embedded into your solutions and that's so important for the same thing we were just talking about a few minutes ago, right, aaron, because we know that when you stay hidden, that's what allows all of these misbehaviors to thrive and to continue and to persist. And it's really in. It's in community where people are healed, it's in meaningful connections and relationships. And I've had this personal conviction because Deep Clean was really built virtually and our team is virtual and I love that. I love that we're around the world, that we've had clients around the world as well, and we'll continue to do that. But we are making some major shifts in the next little bit to do a lot more in person, like you know, retreats and that sort of thing, because there's just nothing de-shames like in-person, face-to-face connection at a heart-to-heart level.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, absolutely no, I love that man. The enemy is prowling, right, he prowls, he's looking for, he's looking to devour. Yeah, and you know, like a lion does, and, and lions look for the isolated, they look for the maimed, the weak. You know, and that's and that's. You know what the enemy does with isolation if, if, he can get us isolated and wants us to be isolated. And the more isolated a man is and a woman, but you know, the more isolated somebody is, the more vulnerable you know they are, and he goes after those vulnerable. But you know, the more isolated somebody is, the more vulnerable you know they are and he goes after those vulnerable places.
Speaker 1:You know, I think when, when Jesus was coming out of the 40 day fast, the enemy attacks him at his most weakest place at that time, and it was hunger. The first temptation of Christ was around hunger, because that was the biggest vulnerability he had coming out of that wilderness 40 days of fasting. I'm starving, man, I haven't done a 40 day fast, but I can imagine right. And so the enemy straight for that weakest area, like a lion, you know, prowling and ready to devour. So yeah, so true isolation is huge.
Speaker 2:Can I just jump on that really quick? Sorry, I know you have other questions, but this is like.
Speaker 2:I almost can't believe that you went here, because this is when we teach identity. In DeClean we talk about this exact scripture, because I have an alternate theory to this scripture. So in Luke, chapter three, jesus gets baptized, the heavens render and a voice comes saying you are my beloved son and you are well pleased. Luke 4,. He's led by the spirit into the wilderness, exactly as he said. You know, he's tempted for 40 days and then the enemy catches him in his weakness and tries to tempt him and the first words out of the enemy's mouth are if you are the son of God, command these stones to become bread. You know it's so interesting he are. If you are the son of God, command these stones to become bread. You know it's so interesting he says if you are the son of God, questioning the very truth that God spoke about him. You know, in the previous chapter.
Speaker 2:You know, before he entered the wilderness and I think, I think that's sometimes the thing we don't realize is the enemy's playing games. He, sometimes the thing he's dangling in front of you is not really. It's not the war. It might be the battle, you know, to turn these stones into bread, but the actual war here is for our identities, for who we are, which is also why community is so important. I can tell you, for me, I would not have the level of security within myself, the level of confidence and not that I'm perfect, but I've grown a lot if it weren't for the community and the people that I've had around me every step of the way through my own recovery and well beyond that now, and I love. That's why I love Jesus' response to the enemy in that scripture, which is man shall not live on bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. And it's just such a good mantra, rather, for us to live by as well if we want to really walk in truth.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh gosh, man, that's so good, and I even go back to you, know those words that God does speak over him.
Speaker 1:You know, and I think what a lot of people miss is that this is before Jesus has done any of the miraculous, it's before he realizes sort of God's agenda for mankind, right, like he just is this carpenter apprentice, you know, like this boy who's grown up, you know he hasn't done anything really amazing and he's out of that water.
Speaker 1:And this is my son. I'm well pleased and it's like, well, he hasn't done anything yet and you're welcome, and that, I really believe, is a baseline identity for you, for me, for anyone listening to this. Like our baseline identity is that we are sons and daughters and that our father in heaven is well pleased with us, before we can ever do anything to earn it. I mean, you think of what Jesus did in the life he lived and you're like man. Well, of course, like God left it. No, like this is before he did any of that he was like, and that is for you and that is for me, and that is for everybody listening, that our baseline identity begins with those words that you are my son or daughter and in you.
Speaker 2:I am well pleased yeah no-transcript was really trying to quit pornography, to separate my behavior from my identity, because I really fundamentally believed that I simply was what I do and living in sort of this performance mindset and this whole idea that you know, god loves me unconditionally the same way he loved his son before he performed any miracles, exactly like you stated, like that's what really shook the ground of that foundation of wait a minute, if Jesus was perfectly loved before he really did any of his more godly activities, like performing miracles and raising the dead, then you know like who, who am I? Who am I to question that kind of love of god and that that that's a big deal it takes. I think it takes a long time to really to really let it do the 18 inch journey from your head to your heart. But it's, yeah, it's, it's, it's so good, like, for me it was, it was the thing that changed my entire trajectory.
Speaker 1:Yeah, even while we were sinners, christ still died for us. Yeah, thank you, jesus man, gosh man, it's so good. So, you know, for someone listening, sathya, you know, maybe they haven't stepped into any sort of recovery journey. They identify that you know porn is a problem in their life. What are some of the first steps that you would, you know, say to somebody you know to kind of take or to enter into recovery?
Speaker 2:Everybody's different. You know, I think if you're listening to this and you know that porn is in your life and you know that you want it out, I think that's the best place to start is to acknowledge that you want it out Because I think it's interesting. You know, aaron, like I know a lot of people, even people, like I said, who will come up to me after a conference or listeners of our podcast or wherever who say, yeah, you know, I get the whole porn thing. I know it's not great, but they maybe are not. They're not in that place where they're like okay, I actually want some help. I think if you want some help, the best thing I can do as, or the best thing I can suggest as a starting point, is to get another person involved, and who that person is is gonna vary. It depends on your situation and the options that you have.
Speaker 2:But the biggest mistake I made the first three years that I was trying to quit porn was I did it alone and again it was sort of that high achiever mentality of I'm going to figure this out, I'm going to have the best story ever and then you know, then I'll tell the world about my struggles.
Speaker 2:Not realizing that telling other people about my struggles was the solution to de-shaming, breaking out of the secrecy and starting to actually get to more of the roots of the issues.
Speaker 2:So I think inviting people in is really important and I think you know even my own journey. I started out just bringing one friend in. It was a close friend, somebody I trusted. It was actually really hard for me to even talk to God about it because I felt so ashamed and I sort of had a distorted view of him. So I thought that if I really acknowledged how much I was struggling with pornography, god would be angry with me, you know. So it was easier for me to bring in a friend first, then God, and then I mean truly the best feeling happens in community, and I think if somebody wants to start on that journey, maybe the idea of plugging into a community right away sounds scary. Some of you might hear that and go yes, that's exactly what I need, you know, let me do it and I would say go for it. But I think the starting point is to get at least one person in who can be there with you and help you a little bit along the way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, if anyone's taking anything away from this, it's going to be community, community, community.
Speaker 2:Oh seriously.
Speaker 1:Invite other people in, right, this is not a bro. I got this, like you know, story after story after story is bro. You don't got this. You need help.
Speaker 1:We need, you know, matt carriers. I think of the. You know the guy that wanted to go before Jesus but couldn't, you know, and and his friends carry him on this mat. You know they carry him, they climb with him and they care for him, even at the top, like you're taking the roof apart. You know you're going to make sure he's not falling off the roof, right, they're caring for him and they lower him in there, right. And so we need those mat carriers. We need people in our lives who because the truth is, we all end up on that mat. You know, in some way, shape or form, financially, sexually, broken, like we're, like we live in a broken world, we live in a fallen world. The enemy is relentless. He wants to steal, kill, destroy and oh, by the way, he doesn't stop, right, we need people that can be there to support us, to lift us up when we can't lift ourselves up, and so I love all the things you're saying about just the importance of community and all that's so important.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, like I said, I've had a conviction about it, Like really just everything we've done. When I first started coaching people, I did one-on-one. We outgrew that. We started running groups out of necessity. And then the first group call I ever ran, I just the experiences was so different you know the guys are kind of making jokes with each other. You can tell they're engaging a lot more.
Speaker 2:There's just there was something special about it and I vowed after that first call I will never do anything that doesn't have some sort of communal element. I didn't want them to just get stuff from me, I wanted to get, I wanted them to get help from each other and so, yeah, so we have just continued to try to think of ways to do that. We actually are just launching a new product now that is literally just community-based. It's just a chance for like-minded dudes to be in community, share openly with each other, get our deep, clean system, get coaching, all that good stuff. But the real emphasis is like community, just plug in, connect with other guys, because I don't think there's anything else that's more powerful than that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, and we'll circle back to that at the end and let you talk a little bit more.
Speaker 2:Oh sure yeah.
Speaker 1:Anything else too that you've got coming up or that you're just really excited about. So yeah, but so I know, for me, like in some of the work that I do with individuals, you know, one of the biggest areas and I think this is kind of getting at the under the surface of the iceberg type of stuff is that the emotional sort of immaturity you know, or the you know, the ability to you know be empathetic, or do those you know show up differently than maybe what they have you know for themselves, but also for you know their partners. And so you know I'm curious, you know, just in like in the work that you do with men, so this gets into kind of being strong leaders and emotionally available. You know partners, but how have you helped men to have maybe some of those tough conversations with their spouse or significant other or to grow in those sort of emotional ways in which maybe they've had some deficits?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so okay, this is a layered question, but a really, really good one. It's interesting. And just to back you up on what you said there a little bit, because I scoured the research quite a bit, my researcher hat has never really come off from my university days and there's a fascinating study. This was probably two or three years ago and they were paying attention to how pathways in the brain regarding empathy are affected by people who view pornography and, not surprisingly, those pathways basically started to shut off and become inactive the more frequently and the longer that people viewed porn. It was just an inherent byproduct and I have a couple of theories on why that is.
Speaker 2:But I would say the embedded message about pornography and the consumption of pornography is that it's all about you, it's all about your needs, it's all about your desires, it's all about your wants and it's about your pleasure. And so I think porn kind of does this weird programming to us subconsciously we don't even realize it that basically tells us you're more important than anyone else. You know your sexual partner, your wife included. So I think for somebody who's struggling with pornography and you're feeling the emotional disconnect number one, understand that there's probably just some shifts, even physiologically that have happened in your brain. But I think the other part of it is, if you're going to have some conversations about it, you might want to have a little bit of intentionality behind it. This is a really important subject. It's very delicate and the way it's not just that you have the conversation, because that end of itself I think can take a lot of convincing for guys. A lot of guys sort of purpose in their heart that they'll just take this with them to the grave and we would call that concealing. You know, and you want to just conceal as long as you can. But I've discovered something interesting about concealing just after being in this space long enough now and helping quite a few guys quit pornography. Concealing is actually a myth. There's no such thing as concealing sexual misbehavior. Concealing is really just stage one. Stage two is called getting caught, and as long as you conceal, it's really just a matter of time. And so the guy who is listening again, I'm not trying to fear monger and I'm not trying to push you into doing something you don't want to do, but the concealment strategy just doesn't. It doesn't work. It always ends in a disaster. But if you're willing to have the conversation which I know is where your question was leading.
Speaker 2:There's a lot more hope Because, as weird as it might sound, you know most of your interactions with your spouse are either a deposit or withdrawal. Right, there's a relationship bank account and we know the good things that put deposits into the accounts and we probably know the not so good things, or the favors, or you know having to be forgiven for something that kind of take a withdrawal out and the amazing thing is that getting caught is a withdrawal. It's a major withdrawal. I mean, that thing can wipe the bank account right out. But being willing to have that conversation an honest conversation, confessional, if you will Confession is actually yes, it's still withdrawal, but it's also deposit because you chose to tell the truth and you chose to have some integrity by not getting caught. So, anyways, a lot of context there.
Speaker 2:To actually answer your question, I think two things need to happen if you're going to have a conversation with your partner. Number one is you need to have a pretty decent understanding of your own story Now. You don't need to have it all figured out I'm definitely not suggesting that but for you to simply a lot of guys just go into this conversation and think they just need to state some facts, and that is usually more harmful than it is helpful. You have to understand a little bit of your story, of what's going on and why you're watching, probably knowing some details like when did this start and how did it evolve. The better you understand your story, the better off you're going to be. The first pillar we teach guys when they do deep clean is build self-awareness, understand your inner world and your inner life and gain an understanding of that. And I would say the second thing is you probably want some guidance from somebody on how to really do this conversation well. I mean, we even have people in our network that are disclosure experts, and so we will refer to them as well Just an experienced, unbiased third party who can facilitate that conversation and do it really well, because we've seen this conversation happen. Do it really well Because we've seen this conversation happen and, admittedly, when I was younger, helping guys and I didn't know as much as I do now I would kind of help guys get into the conversation and it wouldn't go over well and I realized they weren't executing it properly.
Speaker 2:You know, it was really on my part, I wasn't teaching them well, and so I think it's not just that you have the conversation, but it's that you do it really well, and one little maybe nugget that I think kind of puts all this together is put yourself in her shoes, like if you're going to tell her this devastating news. You know a lot of guys it's like they've had all the time to think about it and process it and, you know, listen to this podcast giving them a little bit of guidance on it, and so they go in and they just kind of put it all out there, not realizing like this is, this is, this is like shocking news, this is a lot for your spouse to take in. And so I think having some understanding and some again like re-engaging that empathy going into this process really goes a long way, so that you're you're not just doing this so that you can get the monkey off your back. You're actually doing it in a way that could point things in the right direction, towards healing, growth and connection.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's really good man. I mean we do disclosures here at Regeneration Awesome. And I, you know those are very hard but very beautiful processes and I think what's so important, especially for those, you know, listening is just that you know both are supported. It's support for both, because both of us, or the guy, needs support and and the spouse needs support as well. And so we're, you know, we're very sort of, you know, just mindful of, of the need.
Speaker 1:And I ask guys all the time when they come in, you know and they share, you know my wife found out blah, blah, blah, you know, and I'm like, okay, like, is she getting support? Does she have? Because I think it's so, it's so easy to kind of, you know, maybe glaze over that, or but to even help him. See, hey, like this isn't even a moment for you to, in the midst of all of this, to also encourage her to to get the help that she needs, so that you guys as a, as a couple, can navigate, because now there's like you're healing, she needs to heal and your relationship needs to heal. So these, these three components, and and again, like with community or with other trusted, maybe professionals, you know, like that's it's easier to step into that, and so I think it's yeah, it's super important to you know that you just don't walk sort of that journey alone. Yeah.
Speaker 2:That's such a good point because the yeah, when you're married, you know the two become one. So if, if you have struggled with pornography and you need to get help and to heal, your wife is part of that journey. And, like you said, she's part of that journey in the sense that, the same way you need support, she needs support and she's likely going to go through some sort of journey of her own. You know, depending on, maybe, whether she does some betrayal trauma therapy or recovery or even something lighter than that. It's still there's a grieving process, there's a questioning and a curiosity process where you wanna kind of try to connect some dots and some previous incidents.
Speaker 2:Like she goes through her own process as well, and that's actually a beautiful thing, because that's what allows couples to come back stronger and better than ever. It's that they both go on their journeys, you know, a little bit together and probably a little bit separate and apart in parallel, and that's what kind of leads to the rebirth of a really incredible marriage. And we've seen this in so many of our clients now I mean clients who even got divorced and got back together, because they both went on their healing journeys and the guy quit pornography and he started to really show genuine love and genuine empathy, genuine empathy and care. And you know the wife, the wife responded, the wife kind of woke up again and and I think that kind of stuff can happen when this process is done.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, absolutely, and I think you know to the individual, maybe that's going through, maybe you know you got caught and maybe you confessed. You know, I think confession is definitely better than getting caught, but it's still hard either way.
Speaker 2:It's still tough.
Speaker 1:New information, right, and there's wounds and sort of this transfer of you know, whether you call it power or just information, right, you know you're stepping into the light and that's great, but you're also illuminating some really hard things. And you know, when we do disclosure work and I think about couples, I think about like the intimacy pyramid, and so there's the, there's the you know base layer of truth. So guys that I work with often feel like man. I finally, you know, I've I've said you know the truth, everything's out there, you know, whether you know you got caught or if it's through a disclosure or something, and then it's almost like this, like their experience is this like coming up for air, like when you've been craving a breath underwater and you're like, oh, like I can breathe again, you know, but it's like okay, and with it, and that's real, you know. But now there's also this other side too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you just dumped your wife in the same water.
Speaker 1:Exactly. Yes, it's almost like you're kind of holding her down with your feet now that you're getting a breath or something, but and then you know that second layer is safety and guys want to bypass that. They want to go like hey, I've told you the truth, can we go? Can we go to the third layer, you know, which is trust. Like I want to trust, you know, like and I don't know if you see that with kind of guys that you work with, but this, this safety element, is so important.
Speaker 1:I think that's where the empathy comes in. And I know in my own journey, you know, like you know when, when I used to be asked questions why from my wife, I, I, like, I got super frustrated and it came out sideways and such a better response would be like, you know, honey, I I don't know why, I don't know the answer to that, but I'm going to work to find out and I think that's so different and showing up with some of that empathy and emotional maturity and it takes some time to kind of get there. But I think that's the movement and that's what you want to move towards and see as you're kind of trying to rebuild or kind of you know those layers of the intimacy pyramid, or just that relationship?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, this is where what we were talking about earlier, with kind of a roots based approach for a guy who's in recovery, becomes very relevant here as well. And this is where what we were talking about earlier, with kind of a roots-based approach for a guy who's in recovery, becomes very relevant here as well, because it requires patience. You know you really have to slow down and you have to understand that your marriage healing happens not just at the pace that you quit pornography, but also at the pace that your wife is able to trust again, and trust is easily broken but it's slowly rebuilt. So that patience thing you're talking about is a really big deal. And yes, guys, I think do have that tendency. Okay, I got off my chest. Now you know everything. Let's talk about some solutions, let's get things moving. You know we can be very action oriented and God made us that way for a reason. It's not a bad thing. We just have to kind of understand, you know, when to tether it a little bit more, and I think the patient approach is so important. Just for maybe guys to hear this a little bit differently, the thing that a partner typically is looking for when there's been this kind of betrayal is they need to see enough consistency over long periods of time. That's what actually breeds trust and it is consistency, of course, with not watching pornography and behaving upright in that regard, but it's also consistency at a character level, you know, letting your yes be yes, your no be no, being rich in love, slow to anger, you know. The list goes on there and that just takes time.
Speaker 2:You know, and I went through my entire story with pornography happened as a single person. But my wife and I had a very complex engagement. You know, we buried five relatives during our engagement. She was bedridden for most of it. There was something going on in her body that doctors didn't know and I actually wound up postponing our wedding date because I didn't feel ready to get married with everything that was going on. It just felt like too much. And it's not that I was out of the relationship, but I just. I wanted to delay things and I wanted to get a little bit more clarity, especially on her health issue, but it felt to her like betrayal, like it felt to her like why can't we just get married with the way things are Now? I'll shelf that discussion for another day, but the point I want guys to get is just a year ago. I've been married five years now. So at around the four-year mark my wife said you know, I finally feel like I have full trust in you and full confidence that you're not gonna leave me. I mean, it took that long. That long, you know, we've been married and again, I didn't never threatened to leave the marriage or anything like that. Her heart just needed to see enough consistency over a long enough period of time to fully breathe again.
Speaker 2:And it's not to say that every story takes five years. You and I both know this. You can't put timelines on most of this stuff. It's so nuanced and individual. But the point is you just have to be patient and what you learn as you accept how patient you have to be, which is more patient than you could probably even imagine. What you learn is the actual reward is the journey. It's not about the destination. It's really about the process and the growth and that endurance and that, that character. And that endurance and that character and that fortitude that gets forged in these longer enduring places. That's really the actual reward of this thing. You just have to get a little bit deeper into it before you realize it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, gosh, that's so good. I just watched that new show on Apple with John Krasinski. It's kind of like a rip off. National Treasure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I forget what it's called. I know what you're talking about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's escaping me, but there's a line that they go back to time and time again and it is about the journey is greater than sort of that treasure at the end. There's so much to take in like about that journey. Then there is sort of the like the end, you know thing they're trying to find or, ultimately, you know, move towards.
Speaker 1:So it's just interesting yeah, yeah, you bring that up and just really reminds me of that. Well, hey, just a couple more things. Like I'm curious if there is a success story that sort of stands out to you like from your coaching and and work with men many, many.
Speaker 2:You know there's many, but I'm thinking of the conversation we had today and I have one story in mind that I think will tie this whole thing together. So this man's name is Franklin. He's shared his full story with us on our podcast and it's on our page, so he has no issues with me using his name. Franklin was married to his wife, rhonda, for many years I'm forgetting now, I think it was around a decade and it was the classic. You know. They kind of ran into roommate syndrome a little bit Not a lot of emotional connection Tried some therapy and some counseling and Rhonda one day just decided she was done. She couldn't really connect with him Now, she didn't know this, but he was addicted to pornography and that was a huge reason for the discord and the disconnect and a lot of the issues that were driving that were in their marriage. Rather, so they divorce.
Speaker 2:Franklin kind of has this man I need to get my life in order and he gets a lot of his life in order, but he still continues to struggle with pornography. And Rhonda, his wife, one day, probably about eight, nine years later, calls him and says I think I left some stuff at the house. I've looked high and low for it. I'm pretty sure it's there, can you check? And he looks around because he still was in the house that they lived in when they were married and he says, yeah, actually I do have it here. She says, perfect, I need to come by and grab it. There's some stuff in there that I need. They start talking. They haven't seen each other in years and it's just very. It's just cordial, you know, and it's more pleasant than both of them were expecting. And she leaves and goes home. But little do they know. Like that kind of catalyzes this dating phase again, getting to know each other again, and they end up getting remarried and a year into their second marriage together. Now Franklin, who is, you know, the high achieving professional, has all the accolades. He's now much more accomplished in his career, has done some work as well from their divorce. But it surfaces that this guy has a porn addiction and she basically says, like hey, like you got to take care of this, because we know how much this drove issues in our first marriage, and so she was gracious about it. But she was also, you know, affirmative, like hey, you gotta do something about this. So that's when he came to us.
Speaker 2:And the really interesting thing about Franklin is all the stuff we talked about today in the realm of self-awareness, you know, which for us is kind of about understanding the inner life, the thoughts and the emotions and the beliefs and those key elements that are going on underneath the surface, usually driving a lot of our behavior. He was totally numb to those because the way he learns to achieve professionally was to ignore your feelings, ignore, you know, those bad thoughts in your head and kind of just positive psychology and let's push this thing forward. And so for him, building self-awareness, all the stuff we talked about today, that was the unlock for him. And he still went through our entire process. Like I said, we have three steps.
Speaker 2:But the amazing thing is, if anyone on listening wants to go watch the video of Franklin Sharer's story, he doesn't just share it himself, but Rhonda joins him and they testify together of how not only did he quit porn, but he began to rebuild trust in his marriage, to show his wife hey, I'm not the person that you divorced and I'm not even the person that maybe came into this marriage. I'm a different person. And I asked Rhonda, I said why didn't you leave him, like you already left him once. You had this history and even statistically, the divorce stats all say you know, if you've divorced once, you're much more likely to divorce again. So it just from me, from my perspective, everything said she probably just should have divorced the guy again, or that she would have not, maybe that she should have said she probably just should have divorced the guy again, or that she would have not, maybe that she should have. And I asked her, I said why did you stick around? And she said all I know is that he needed to know I believed in him, if he was really going to change.
Speaker 2:And I think for me that story has just always stuck out. You know, there's that famous adage that behind every great man there's an even greater woman. Totally, and I think you know, whether you're listening to this today as a man who's talking about pornography, or maybe as a woman who feels betrayed by their spouse or their partner who's watching. I just want you to know that you can actually affect a change in his recovery, in his recovery. And to the men who are listening to this, I just want you to know that you know, whether you're young or old, whether you've had affairs, whether you bought sex or you know we've had clients who've just been addicted to porn for 50, 60 years. Some of them, you know, they're in their latter years of life and they're pursuing freedom. Freedom is not just possible for you, but it's probable for you when you do the right things, when you have the system that helps you get to the roots, when you have a community like we discussed, those things are inevitable.
Speaker 1:You really just have to stick with them long enough. Yeah, man, and it's never too late.
Speaker 2:No, never, never, never.
Speaker 1:You know, to get started on that journey and to embark on, you know that deeper healing and wholeness in your life. Gosh, that's good. Sathya. What would you say to your 18 year old self, if, if you could go back and tell him one thing, what would you? What would you say to young Sathya?
Speaker 2:Don't do it alone. Yeah, whatever you do, do just do it with other people. One other person, a couple other people. You want to join a full-on community. You know, if you want to grow, if you want to heal, if you want to become the person god made you to be, don't do it alone yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:I mean, I love that and because that's we're not made to be alone, no, made for community. You know it's in. You know, if we're made in his image, part of that image is he exists eternally in a community of three Father, son, right and we're made in his image. So we have put inside of us this longing, even if we don't realize it for others and sometimes we don't see that because we feel like the recluse or we feel that deep isolation. But at the core again, the truth of who we are and who we've been made to be, are members of a body, a part of a community.
Speaker 2:That's such a good point. Yeah, I was just going to add real quick you know, paul wrote in first Corinthians 15, verse 33, I believe it is that bad company corrupts good character. You know, and yeah, I just, I was just thinking about what you said. It's so true. It was just making me realize like, as an 18 yearold, I could have done everything I wanted to do on my own, and it might have even worked for a little bit. But without the right support to nurture it, to sustain it and to help it continue to grow, somewhere along the way I would have fallen off. And it's that good company that just goes such a long way to getting good results and good character and becoming those people that God made us to be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely so good. So, Theo, I kind of want to give you a little bit of the last word, in a sense. You mentioned earlier that you guys have sort of a new product, a group sort of thing kind of coming out or launching. I'd love for you just to be able to share a little bit more about that, or any other developments or projects that you're particularly excited about that are in the works for you guys and man Within.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I have two things that I would recommend to your audience specifically. Yeah, we do have Deep Clean Inner Circle is the name of what we've just launched, and that is really for men who want to plug into a community. They want to get our deep clean system. They want coaching from me and my head coach, but they want it at an affordable rate, because if you were going to work with us more closely, then it's a greater financial investment. But DeepClean Inner Circle is really a great place to start and there's incredible, incredible stories coming out of that community.
Speaker 2:But what I would actually like most of your audience to do is to just go check out my podcast. But what I would actually like most of your audience to do is to just go check out my podcast. Check out it's called the man Within, the man Within Podcast and that's a really good starting point. Just see if you like our content, see if the message lands and if you get some value from that, then that's probably a good sign. That Deem Clean Inner Circle would be another good step to take afterwards. But go check out the podcast first, see if it makes sense. It's available on all major platforms and go check out the podcast first see if it makes sense. It's available on all major, major platforms and you know we have.
Speaker 2:I'm always blown away at the kind of guests that that we're able to land. After this interview with you, aaron, I'm going to be interviewing john eldridge, and so there's, there's, you know, those kinds of great people on there. But then I also do teaching segments, little 10, 12 minute snippets to just give people a little injection for the day. Because, let's not kid ourselves, you know, this is a daily struggle and we need help daily. We need, we need the word of God, we need the truth, we need encouragement, we need stories of inspiration in our ears and in our hearts daily, and that's the goal of the podcast. That's why we do, you know, four to five episodes a week. So it's men within on all major platforms. So good.
Speaker 1:So the yeah, so it's like quivers, you know, like all the, all these resources. You know I'd rather be more resource than under resource. Yeah, that's right, so good, yeah. So, man, it has been a delight to have you on becoming whole today and just say thank you so much for the work that you're doing, for your story and just for your, your voice and your leadership in this space. Man, this was a really fun conversation. So thanks again, man, for sharing your leadership in this space. Man, this was a really fun conversation. So thanks again, man, for sharing your heart with us on Becoming Whole.
Speaker 2:Oh hey, I love what you guys are doing, man. Thanks for letting me be part of it today. It was a pleasure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, god bless you, man, you too.
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