Becoming Whole
Relationships and sexuality are areas of life that can be beautiful or confusing, life-giving, or painful. Becoming Whole is a conversational podcast for men, women, and families seeking to draw nearer to Jesus as they navigate topics like sexual integrity, relational healing, spiritual health, and so much more.
Becoming Whole
Recovery Fatigue
Recovery fatigue is a rarely discussed but a common experience for men trying to rebuild after betrayal. What happens when all the meetings, check-ins, and recovery work start to feel overwhelming or—worse yet—like they're not making a difference?
Dan Drake, a licensed marriage and family therapist and certified sex addiction therapist with over 20 years of experience, joins us to unpack this challenging reality. He shares insights on how recovery motivation makes all the difference: "If I'm checking boxes trying to do these things to get my wife back and stop her from pestering me, that's going to be a different motivation than 'I get to do these things to thrive and become a better human being.'"
Resources:
Kintsugi Recovery Partners (Find a Disclosure Guide)
Books:
Full Disclosure (For the Disclosing Individual)
Full Disclosure: Seeking Truth After Sexual Betrayal Vol 1 (For Partners)
Full Disclosure: Seeking Truth After Sexual Betrayal Vol 2 (For Partners)
Full Disclosure: Seeking Truth After Sexual Betrayal Vol 3 (For Partners)
For more information or to join click one of the links below.
Manna - Men seeking freedom from unwanted sexual behavior, temptation, and shame.
Oasis - Women seeking freedom from unwanted sexual behavior, temptation, and shame.
Compass - Wives seeking healing from betrayal and broken trust.
Awaken Men's Retreat 2025 - Register Today!
Free Resources to help you on your journey to Becoming Whole
👉Men's Overcoming Lust & Temptation Devotional
👉Women 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Women overcoming unwanted sexual Behavior)
👉Compass 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Wives who are or have been impacted by partner betrayal)
Well, welcome back to the Becoming Whole podcast. My name is Aaron Taggart. I'm one of our spiritual coaches here at Regeneration, as well as one of our full therapeutic disclosure guides. I'm so glad you're tuning in today, because I have been looking forward to this conversation with today's guest for quite some time.
Speaker 1:Our guest today is Dan Drake, a trusted voice in the field of sexual addiction recovery, betrayal trauma and healing for couples. Dan is a licensed marriage and family therapist, a certified sex addiction therapist and supervisor, the founder of the Banyan Group, a therapy and coaching practice that specializes in betrayal trauma, compulsive sexual behavior and couples recovery. And the co-author of several books and workbooks designed to help both strugglers and betrayed partners find their way toward restoration. Dan has spent over 20 years walking alongside individuals and couples in some of their darkest moments, offering hope, practical tools and a path forward. He's known for his compassionate, clear-eyed approach to rebuilding trust, navigating the complexity of recovery and addressing the deep wounds that drive unwanted behaviors.
Speaker 1:Today, we're going to be talking with Dan about some of the struggles men face in recovery Things like recovery fatigue and dealing with the shift in power after disclosure, the pull of shame in the healing process and the temptation to bypass the hard work of rebuilding safety, and while this conversation is geared toward men in recovery, if you're a partner who's experienced betrayal, we trust you'll find this episode meaningful and supportive as well. So let's dive in. Dan, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2:Thank you, Aaron. So great to join. So appreciate what you do.
Speaker 1:Thanks, man. Yeah, it's so good to have you on here. I just knew you were the guy to be able to talk with some of these things about. I mean, I was introduced to you actually a couple years ago doing some diving into some of the full therapeutic disclosure guide training that you do through Kintsugi Partners, which you, you know, co-founded with Janice Caudill, you guys co-authored. You know the material that we use for the disclosures we do through regeneration and they have just been so helpful and so, yeah, I'm super thankful to be able to share this space with you today. Brother, so glad let's dive in. Yeah, let's do it, but before we do, dan, can you just share with our listeners a little bit about who you are? I mean, I know I just gave a long, long list of some things there, but who you are a little bit about you know the work that you do and what you find most meaningful about it.
Speaker 2:What you find most meaningful about it. Yeah, that's great. You know, when you just asked that, the first thought I had was I could tell you a bunch of stuff about my practice. But you did a lot of that, so that's a lot of what I do. Who am I? I'm a human being, first of all. You know, child of God is the first obvious place place I. I I'm a.
Speaker 2:I'm someone who is constantly seeking to grow and each and every day, to keep growing, becoming a better version of myself myself, my family, my kids, I think, and that's so important Um, being a father, being a husband, and when I fail and when I screw up, and when I, you know, is to to get back up and keep going.
Speaker 2:Just, you know, I think there's none are perfect, and that's. I think there's something so much about you know what my wife and I are able to when we, when we uh, we have this thing. I don't know why I'm saying this right now, but when one of us says screws up and says something or, you know, does something that hurts the other, we have, we have a thing called a redo and we literally there's been times where I've come home and I didn't do a good job of, you know, after sessions long sessions, and I didn't do a good job, you know, discharging energy or you know, really kind of centering myself before coming back, and I find myself snapping at my wife and there've been times I've literally gone back outside, called her redo for myself, do over, and literally come back inside and I think for me, I'm someone who wants to keep getting back up. I'm trying to do more and better, but that's what I really seek to do become a better version of myself. That's so important.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man, I love that, and I'll tell you, we're no strangers to the redo in the Taggart household either. So, yeah, I love that, awesome man. Well, let's go ahead and jump in. I want to begin talking about a topic that I know we were just dialoguing before we started here. This is what we're going to talk about first is something that we haven't heard talked about a lot, but yet we experienced when we're working with clients, and that is recovery fatigue. And so, dan, I'm just curious, even like how would you maybe even kind of describe recovery fatigue?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I, I, I appreciate that. I was just saying, you know, before we started, like I don't think I've heard anyone talk about this individually before we started, like I don't think I've heard anyone talk about this individually, like we just we said, but I think I see, I see this a lot early on. People are kind of doing everything but the kinship sink they're, they're trying to do everything. You know, they're oftentimes and this has been my experience, I don't know if this is yours, but typically the betrayed partner has done a deep dive, finding information there, everything you know they've, they found out, they know more, they probably know more than I'll ever know. You know they've already found information. They found like resources, and oftentimes they're playing them to their, you know, to their partner, their husband, or to the struggler. And sometimes you know, and then the they're kind of the betrayer, the struggler to do at that point but like, okay, yeah, I'll do whatever, I'll do whatever it takes and kind of take on all these things and, I think, trying to manage just the kind of chaos and instability of early recovery, figuring out a new way of operating in the world that doesn't involve addiction. Things can get pretty intense or blow up in the family or be really inconsistent, trying to keep on your regular day job at the same time and trying to add all this other things. So it's, I think people get really flustered early on. They're trying to do a lot of stuff.
Speaker 2:I've seen this, I'm trying to think. I've seen, I've definitely seen it play out later on I'm just thinking earlier. When people start their healing, you know their recovery journey. I feel like that's where I've seen this kind of play out more often than not and I don't know what you'd say, but I see it. There's a few things. I don't know if I have like data for this, but I've seen people. There's resentment that can start to come. Sometimes the struggler feels resentful or they start to feel victimized about it. They feel like if they're over, not just overwhelmed, but they're sort of a bad attitude about recovery stuff and then they either become passive, aggressive or sometimes aggressive. As a result, they're not doing well. I mean actually think.
Speaker 2:Now that I'm thinking about it, I think of you know, michael Dye, and the faster scale that pure desire uses. I think there's what's exhaustion is right before we last on a faster scale. So people are, you know they're, they're, they're either burnt out or they're kind of exhausted, trying to go all in with this. Um, I think what I've seen later on, where I see this and I don't know we can obviously talk about earlier versus later but I think where I see this later is where the men I work with are primarily doing recovery for their partner and they haven't really taken it on for themselves. That's actually pretty critical, because it's not uncommon.
Speaker 2:Most guys I work with are trying to restore their relationship. They're trying to do whatever it takes. They're, you know they're they're grasping at straws to heal and restore, but they haven't really said this is for me, and without like this is for me to live a new life and like I, I need this, I can't. I can't, I have to do recovery for myself. You know we all have the same amount of hours in the day. No one has more, no one has less, and I, I'm not.
Speaker 2:You know what's my motivation when I'm doing something, if it's oh, I have to check all these boxes so that I can, you know, get to a certain result, versus I get to. You know what's the difference in mentality? I get to do these things to become the best version of myself, to become the man that I always wanted to be and I try to present to everybody. But I was really actually hiding a lot of this stuff because I didn't want people to see what was happening behind the scenes and what if I could actually be in integrity, full integrity, and I could live a life that was free. And all these things that I get to do in recovery maybe that motivation Okay, and maybe meetings are part of that or doing groups or doing coaching or you know, adding other stuff Like I get to these are the things that help me continue to become that person.
Speaker 2:That's such a different mindset and I don't one. If I'm checking boxes and trying to do these things to, you know, get my wallet back and stop pestering me. That's going to be a different motivation. When man I get to, I get to do these things to to thrive and become a better human being. So, yeah, that's a couple, a lot of thoughts yeah, no, it's, that's great.
Speaker 1:and I would say, yeah, it's same for me, like I, I definitely see this especially early in or in recovery. I do see it later, in recovery too, but in different ways, just like you kind of talked about, and and I share with clients all the time that, first and foremost, your, your recovery, has to be for yourself. Yes, it's important to you, know, to try to bring, you know, what you can bring to healing for that relationship, but you're only going to be able to bring so much to that, especially if you haven't really done a lot of the healing work. You know that's that's behind that too, and and I think, like you said, like later, you know, I think I do I do see some of that kind of almost like resentment or just bitterness, like gosh, like I've, like, I've done all these things.
Speaker 1:Or even, like you know, like in disclosure, like when a couple goes, if they go through disclosure, you know, thinking like man, the disclosure should have been enough, or something like that. And it's like you know, no, you, you know you have this opportunity, you know, to, like you said, you know, really invest so much in yourself. And that's really what it's about. It's an investment for healing for yourself that you can bring a more healed self to that relationship and bring healing into your relationship, more healed self to that relationship and bring healing into your relationship. So you know, kind of to so sort of in that vein, you know how can a man tell the difference between healthy weariness from doing the hard work and unhealthy burnout in recovery?
Speaker 2:I think a big soul question is again going back to this who am I doing this for? Well, what am I doing it for? Am I trying to appease my wife by doing all these things so that she stops being so mad at me? And then, if I do it, then I'm hoping that she's going to settle down and we'll go back to life the way it was. I don't know. I feel like that's going to lead to burnout, weariness. I think it's motivation, like you know, pain and suffering, for example. I can have a lot of pain without suffering. I feel like weariness.
Speaker 2:It is a lot of work. Recovery is a lot of work and it's hard work. It's hard work to change patterns of coping with life and you know these. Whatever led someone down these unwanted paths in the first place? You know it takes a lot of work and a lot of dedicated effort. And but I I think there's a difference with with what's my intention, what's my motivation? And if I'm really, if I'm really in it and you know that comes. I think it shifts over time. But if, if it's starting with I'm just doing this, but my heart's not really in it, man, but if, if it's starting with I'm just doing this, but my heart's not really in it, man, that's going to lead to super, that's going to lead to burnout. I just think I don't see, cause I can do a lot of work.
Speaker 2:I was just thinking I ran. I've run a couple of marathons. I don't know why people run marathons, why, why would I run a marathon? I mean, after about mile 18, it's mental, it's not this. My body like it's kind of done. My body's like why are we running? Still, let's stop. There's this thing. I think I can, but what it? What was really cool for me I mean, I had that experience a couple times is there's my, my, my will actually keeps me moving forward and it's, you know, I'm.
Speaker 2:That's all I want to say, that's all self, self here, like this is obviously more. You know, I can't do this alone. Recovery the recovery is different because I, but I think there's a my motivation and then I think there's a surrender that you need to have as well. Like I can let other people into my life, I can learn how to not have to be a hero. I can. I can actually be um, learn how to take wisdom from other people and and and be be honest and fully, fully focused. But I think there's something about like where my mindset is is so critical, and then I think the mindset of openness and surrender to God and to others around me is so. I think that's so pivotal to actually not creating burnout. Yeah, one thought of boundaries. I don't know if we want to go there.
Speaker 1:Totally. Actually, I actually have a question around boundaries in in this process, especially for the for a partner maybe that's been been betrayed and earlier you mentioned and I don't know if this is exactly where you're going with it, so we can kind of tie in what you're thinking with boundaries too. But just kind of, you know, like this idea, like you mentioned, you know so often that you know that you know that often the betrayed partner you know finds out all this information and it's like here, do this, do this, I want you to check this out, check this out. Right, is there like a point in time, like I was, like what is a healthy boundary around sort of sharing information, especially, as you know, maybe the, the struggler, kind of gets going into some recovery to kind of avoid maybe some of that? You know, I don't know resentment or bitterness, or like I'm doing everything I can like, like you know and again I know that's a personal attitude too like, but how would we like, yeah, how do we frame that up for a couple?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's what I was thinking. It's such a, it's such a big topic because, at least my experience, most of the men I work with they, they, they get a list of boundaries and they feel two main things they feel controlled or they feel punished. That they have that's their experience a lot of times. What I try to shift the frame, these aren't for control. They're not done well. I think a partner boundary is not for that purpose. The partner boundary list, if they are willing to share, that is to me is like such a gift. If your partner's willing to give you boundaries and share, these are the things that will help her. Basically, she's giving you a roadmap towards rebuilding safety back for her and the relationship Like that's. That's a gift. You don't have to read between the lines. She's literally telling you these things. If you do these things, that will help me rebuild safety. So to me that there's something that's so powerful about that. And then you know, double bonus, if you are willing to follow through with those boundaries. How we rebuild trust after betrayal is your partner will be seeing your words and your actions line up. Do you say you're going to do it and then you follow up with it so we can start to rebuild safety and trust by honoring the boundaries. The thing that I've found over the years really, really helpful is to slow down, instead of most guys I've talked to, when they get a boundary list, they feel backed into a corner. They feel like they have no option but to say yes to these things. What I do try to see is okay, what's realistic for you, what is what can you do? What are you willing to do? And these things, not that you're going to start to start again. I think this is a marathon, not a sprint. This isn't something. I think that's where I see. Going back to the previous thing, I think sometimes people start this as like a sprint and you get burnt out pretty quickly. We have to be able to conserve energy. Can I be doing these in six months from now?
Speaker 2:And if there's some things I think of this example, for example, a partner had a understandable boundary for for her husband. It was because she needed. Transparency was the biggest value and she needed responsiveness because he would like. I think he would turn his phone off and not be available when he was acting out. So for her she wanted. Her boundary of her request was if I call you, I need you to answer by the third ring was her request. And I'm like, okay, so I get where she's trying to go with it. And he's like, yes, I'll do that. And I said, okay, just to play devil's advocate.
Speaker 2:Do you have meetings where you, let's say, you're in a coaching session and then she calls to answer, or you're in another meeting where you are? There any meetings at work where you couldn't answer? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. Well, then we can't just agree to that boundary right as it's written, because she's going to take that at face value. If you're saying you're going to call, if she calls you, you're going to answer it.
Speaker 2:Well, so what? What? I? What I suggested there was um, honor the boundary, but are there other things you can do? So if you know you're going to be unavailable, you'll let her know I'm going to be doing this thing for this period of time. I will bookend it, I'll text you before, I'll text you after.
Speaker 2:So is there a yes we can provide? He also says I can't do some of this, but I'm willing to provide safety in this way. And I guess that's an example of if you know you have a boundary list and you know, like I could probably have the energy for for one meeting tonight, but doing two or three just is going to be too much for me. We have to communicate that on some level because you know, I think if you can say I understand these things would be really helpful. I'm willing to do this and I'm, I want, and you can do with empathy and compassion for the partner. You know, give that to the partner but say I think this is what's realistic, what I can do. I'm willing to add these other things. Or, if I'm going to do these meetings, there's some maybe things around the house that I won't be able to do as much of. There's a negotiation with the kids or with other responsibilities. Potentially, potentially does that work?
Speaker 2:And you know there's a, there's a back and forth instead of a flat yes, I'll do it all and then and then try to be superman or hero. I think a lot of guys try to do that. I'll do it all, but then then the weight of it like I, it's not sustainable. Yeah, you see that, but I think then then, if I can say and I've just seen this play out too many times if the partner's dictating recovery for you solely and they don't know you're just doing everything they're asking you to do. I actually don't see that providing safety, because then the partner there's something in the betrayed partner's side. They're like are you just doing it because I'm telling you to Do you? Where are you really? You know, what are your, what's your recovery? Look like, what are the hills you're willing to fight on.
Speaker 2:And I sometimes see when the guys I've worked with will say, and with compassion, I'm not saying, well, I can't do that. That's ridiculous. Obviously, don't say that. But when it's, this is what I think I can realistically do. Does this work for you or can we figure out a way to make this work? I feel like that's a lot more sustainable for someone when, when they're trying to honor the partner's boundaries, to rebuild safety or you know, maybe, maybe this level of it I can't do, but I, but I certainly that's. I understand that important to you and that makes sense to me. Here's what I think I could do. Does that, does that provide the same level of safety? I don't know, like that's.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, that's man, that's so, that's so good. And you know I I'm sitting here, I can't, I can't escape kind of this. You know concept that eugene peterson had about the like the long obedience in the same direction. You know really kind of this. You know this process is kind of this long, like walking this out, growing, learning, implementing, you know ref, you know bringing back to the relationship, like all of these things like play into one another and it is uh, it is long-term, it's not just a short, you know short-term thing.
Speaker 2:And I was just saying like on the I just I, I can feel when I talked to the betrayed partner about this. I mean that that I can understand. If anyone's listening, I can. I can appreciate on the betrayed partner side how scary that would be to get potential negotiation with boundaries Because you may have experienced manipulation or gaslighting in the past, or this is not meant where addict becomes the victim and I can't do any of it. And it's not meant to absolve themselves of responsibility. That's not at all what this is. It's to try to say what's what feels sustainable and and maybe they actually can't handle more than they're saying they are and let's try it out. Or maybe there's a let's try it for a period of time and re-discuss the where things are and revisit it.
Speaker 2:And you know, maybe we change things because you you know, janice Cottle and I, in our disclosure workbooks we talked about guardrail boundaries versus traffic cone boundaries. You know guardrails if I'm on a mountain pass, those are fixed. Hopefully we want those things fixed so that they're going to protect going off the ledge, I think early on. And there might be some guardrail boundaries that people need to set. You know partners understandably need to set, but there's a lot of, especially early on, traffic cone boundaries where you know we have, at least in Los Angeles, there's all kinds of potholes everywhere. The roads are terrible, so you know we might need traffic cones to divert and provide immediate safety, but that might not be forever.
Speaker 2:So some of these things, I think you know what, what we might need early on, in the first. You know, 90 days, six months, year may may be different, and having that constant, or discussion at least not constant, but you know, revisiting of these things and really, and the addict taking disability, how do I, am I, how am I providing safety for my partner? Is this working? Are you feeling safer with my behaviors? You know, and that should be showing up. If it's not, then we've got other problems and things to consider yeah, that's such an important posture, right like that.
Speaker 1:You know that because it really and you've probably seen this as well like that betrayed partner is really leaning into her spouse for part of that healing. It's an invitation, really right, to show up with that behavioral truth and to show her that you're doing what you're saying and you're showing up with empathy, attunement and and really you know, trying to to help her heal 100%. Yeah, how about? Okay, this one? So in specifically to disclosure, is there anything that you can think of you know outside of you know, maybe men kind of in recovery or anyway, mistakes that guys might make after disclosure that contribute to fatigue? Oh yeah, Helping them to show up with that empathy and attunement for their partner.
Speaker 1:And specifically after yeah like specifically after kind of going through a disclosure.
Speaker 2:One huge thing and I learned this the hard way. I think most people I've walked through disclosure with not say it outright, but understandably it feels like, okay, we do this big thing, we do disclosure. This feels like a finish line and so we'll get through disclosure, and I've seen this play out and again, I think we wrote about this in the workbooks because unfortunately, I've learned the hard way that I didn't prepare people well enough for this in the past, that when we literally have an exercise called it's going to get worse before it gets better, and so to prepare, you know, if I'm sharing all information in a disclosure, usually most men feel you know, they, they feel both unburdened. There's a relief that they feel and then also fear. Now what you know, now something. This is the most terrifying thing I can think of sharing all this, this stuff that I was trying to keep secret for myself and from everybody. Especially the person I love the most is trying to keep this stuff secret. I'm actually going to share it all and this, all the core beliefs come up. You know I'm unlovable, I'm actually going to share it all and this, all this poor beliefs come up. You know I'm unlovable, I'm defective, I'm unworthy and you know, if she really knows all this stuff, how could she possibly stay with me? So there's a lot of fear that comes up. But I seen, if we, if for some men they're like, hey, I did this big thing and now I want rest, I want to. You know they might not say it, but I want to high five, I want some kudos for doing this big thing.
Speaker 2:And when a partner is hurt and angry and has a lot of questions, or she sets some even stronger boundaries potentially after get really themselves, get reactive and resentful, that like, well, I did all this and then stuff is still not good enough for you, you know, now there's more. So I think, sometimes having even before doing disclosure, having the mindset think of it like disclosure, what it does, if you think of a building metaphor, we've just started to set new concrete for a new relationship. Now there's no secrets. We've got a foundation that we can build from. We've got the building to do. Still, we've got to build this new house, the structure, together. It's a huge step. We can't have that without this is, you know, we're building it on solid ground now, but without that we can't. You know, we still have to build a house after. So I think there's something about that. Yes, take some time to appreciate and talk to other men about this, because they will give support. I think that's really important.
Speaker 2:But I think that post-disclosure period can be really, you know, sometimes partners need more space after disclosure. Sometimes that's in home, sometimes they need separations. Sometimes, you know, whatever Maybe they had a sex life prior to disclosure or now doesn't want to be touched at all, you know, not even non-sexually, like they don't I don't, don't touch me. So sometimes that can feel really discouraging. I get I think we're talking burnout or fatigue, but I think, just if we can know this is all normal and this, this doesn't last forever, in that I, I don't know, that can help.
Speaker 2:A lot of guys say this is, this is a normal part of the process, and don't, don't get disheartened, don't lose hope. Um, and in some ways I was thinking of again when I I don't know when I would go, when I'd be out on a run and I would see a hill coming up. My body wants to slow down, like, oh, there's this hill. What I, what I tended to do, though I'd actually start speeding up right at the base of the hill as a way of like I got that and I feel like there's something about that energy.
Speaker 2:So, disclosure, we want to take our foot off the gas. If we can keep that mindset like no, this is now we're getting into the next phase, like yeah, there's some hurdles we got to jump over and there's some big ones, but this is a big deal. Let's keep that momentum going, not stall it and slow down. So if you can actually redouble your efforts, it might sound like the opposite of recovery fatigue, but again, I think the mindset, if you expect it redouble your efforts it might sound like the opposite of recovery fatigue, but again, I think the mindset, if you expect it and I'm still, I'm going to get all the supports, I'm going to keep leaning in. That's when guys kind of transition versus saying like okay, we're going to take a break, I'll have like a month off from all this and we pick back up. That's not what's going to happen realistically, yeah, yeah, absolutely no.
Speaker 1:Like that's not what's going to happen realistically. Yeah yeah, absolutely no. Attacking the Hills? Yeah, I've heard about that that way. You know, I didn't know that phrase. Well, I, it's not because I'm a runner I'll tell you that I threw the shot, put discus and the hammer, so I called it a field and track instead of track field. So, yeah, attacking the Hills because of that very thing, right, knowing man, it's a hill, it's going to require a little bit more. So don't coast up it, you know, but try to, you know, try to attack it.
Speaker 1:And then what you were saying too, about sort of and this I'm getting ahead of myself. So I think this will kind of talk about, this will get into what we're talking about a little bit later. But you know, there's that I, in a disclosure, when everything is out there, I, I have found that the, the struggler, experiences a freedom like he's never experienced in his life, because all of the information is out, he is not holding anything back any longer and it is kind of like this he's been underwater, clamoring for a breath, and then he surfaces and it's the like, like there it is, you know, and but simultaneously it's almost kind of like in that process, kind of pulling the spouse under underwater and not having to try to kind of navigate that right.
Speaker 2:So two very different experiences of this, of the same event, and that's hard, it's just that's hard, so hard, it's so hard and I I guess I've I just want to say a lot of compassion because it's for anyone willing to navigate that and share. Share the full truth is is hard enough. Anyone that's that's struggled at least everyone I've talked to you know they. There's a lot that they've kept hidden. I've talked to you know they. There's a lot that they've kept hidden. They've tried you know a lot of things to stop this and they ended up keeping secrets, lying and deceiving and so just being willing to share it. It's such, it's such an honor to walk with people through it and I know it. I had the luxury of being able to see that the you know bird's eye view of what I've seen with other couples, but I know walking through it it's it's so tough. So I just appreciate people's journeys and willingness to to keep moving forward in this whole thing. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally. I mean, I feel so honored to be a part of that process with couples that we walk, work with you know, and it like it, like you said it is, it's such a hard process and but seeing what, what god can do and and just the rebuilding in his heart for for them and for that union and things, so it's um, yeah, it's hard but but it's beautiful. All right, let's um gosh, I feel like let's kind of stay. So we've talked a little bit about safety. I'm going to kind of jump into a little bit more about safety and sort of kind of this idea of you know you and the Rabsmiths, you know you guys have the intimacy pyramid, which is absolutely phenomenal and I've used so many times with clients and I know so many of our coaches at region have done the same.
Speaker 1:So this idea of like bypassing hard work, of rebuilding safety, and what I see so often in the clients that I work with is that the, the, the struggler wants to jump. So you talked about that foundation of truth and then the next layer is safety and then after that is trust. And I see so often guys, especially in disclosure, you know, kind of sharing the information everything's out there. And now they just they want to get back to this place of trust. So they're, you know, they want to essentially bypass that hard work of safety to get to a place of being trusted again. Yeah, create that safety. So. So what do you think? Why do you think that men are so often tempted to rush or bypass that hard work of rebuilding safety after disclosure?
Speaker 2:Um, my thought was because it sucks. It sucks to be sitting in this place of not being trusted. Yeah, it feels terrible.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's really hard to sit Sometimes and I don't know if your experience it reflects their own shame when they see their partner in distress. Or they see their partner because you know feeling pain or hurt or anger or distrust, because the reality is I don't want to, I don't want to be that guy, I don't want to see myself as that guy I want to be, I want to be the other one and maybe I'm actually becoming that. That's the thing too that you know you could be very well a hundred percent truthful about something and your partner still may say that BS to me, but I don't believe you. I mean that could be the case. That, to me, is the place to try not to get defensive and double down on the truth. If you can shift it to compassion and you know Carol sheets and her help help does it help her heal or help them heal? I forget which one she talks. I think it's help her heal. Um talks about avr. So knowledge, validate, reassure you may be triggered and you're like I'm telling the truth and then you get defensive. That's very possible. But if we can start to shift it where it makes perfect sense, you wouldn't believe me because I did lie to you for so long, for these many years in the past, and I get why you wouldn't believe me now. Then reassure, I am telling the truth and I'm willing to back that up and you don't have to believe me now, but I'm telling you the truth. Such a different posture than I'm telling you the truth. Why don't you believe me? It's never going to be enough for you and no matter what I do, you know you're all're, it's never going to be good enough. That's a total different energy.
Speaker 2:So I feel like those moments. This is where, yeah, again, who wants to sit seeing, seeing this mirror reflected back to me of the person I don't want to be? But that's where you know consistency over time and we have this phrase. You know trust is rebuilt through consistent, trustworthy actions over time. It takes time. We don't just do it. Disclosure is huge. Even if you do, you know you might even do a polygraph at disclosure. That's just a huge deal.
Speaker 2:But then your partner gets triggered, or you say a little white lie about something else, or she catches you doing something. It might not be even sexual related. There's there's all these things that start to bring up a lack of trust and fear and anxiety, so, or old patterns start to come back. You might not be acting out, but some stuff that was there withdrawn, withholding, minimization, manipulation, all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:So I feel like I don't know for you, but I feel like most of us we want to actually come in as a hero and do something really. You know, I want to go into the burning building and save a bunch of people and then be the hero and there are some moments of that in recovery, but most often it's the kind of for lack of better words boring. What am I doing during the weekdays? To be more consistent with my wife and family and more present than I was before and take responsibility for when I blow it? And, you know, try to love my partner better and be trustworthy through actions, not just words. You know that there's no shortcut for it. There just isn't.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I talk about it just being like. You know you're learning to show up differently. Yeah, yeah, I talk about it just being like you know you're learning to show up differently. You know you've shown up in the past and maybe it wasn't so great, you know. So how can you rewrite that, moving forward, you know?
Speaker 2:by showing up differently.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and yeah, it doesn't have to be the you know running in and you know saving the building or the people, Right, and things like that you know, but just little things. Practical things like what are you know? Some things like that you know, but just little things. Practical things like what are you know? Some things that that you know that you can work on to to improve in this way and and again, like you know, and being proactive in certain ways too, in certain areas too, which is so helpful, like you know. I think that gets back to some of that behavioral truth. Tell you know, you know, my clients all the time that if you can, if if you can be proactive and lead some of these harder conversations or enter in like acknowledge if she's feeling triggered, you know, don't shy away from the things that feel so uncomfortable, but lean into it. You know that's going to you're presenting, but you're you're showing up different. I love it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I, this is pretty core. I don't know if it's a male thing or not, but I know, whatever we're, we're driving by something and my partner sees something and I know she's potentially triggered. But let's, I'm going to pretend that she didn't know, she didn't see whatever it was. I'm going to pretend or he just got, okay, good, she didn't, she didn't make a big deal of it, we got through that. Or or an anniversary is coming up, or D day anniversary coming up, like be proactive. You know, yes, yes, she may have a difficult, it may not go perfectly in a conversation, she may have feelings, for sure, but I, I totally agree. I think, when you avoid it, just so you don't get a riled up, just thinking about it anyway, and the fact that, if you can say, be proactive with it, I think those so far, because the partner, the partner will see that recognize oh, he's leaning into something differently than he did before, he's not shying away from it. It's a big diff.
Speaker 1:That makes a big deal yeah, yeah, yeah, and I think too, like if they're, if you know if they're trying too quickly to sort of bypass that you know safety to to regain that trust.
Speaker 1:You know, I think that you know that there's noted Right, and so you know I think it's, you know it's that showing up differently, you know how you show up matters, like it really matters how you, how you show up and and you don't have to be perfect, you don't have to know everything I mean you're part, that's part, of the recovery. You know, I tell guys all the time the hardest part about this process and speaking about the disclosure process is you know that, after sort of like what's what's next, like this is where you know, like that learning to show up different and and to be more empathetic. Like you know, growing an empathy when you haven't had much or any is not going to overnight, like it's going to take some time and so, but but you need to move towards that. It's kind of like attacking the hill, right, Sorry, go ahead. No, no, no, you see it coming, man, you're like man, I suck at this, I can't do this.
Speaker 2:And then it's like, okay, well, here's the hill, it's not going anywhere and I got to go over it, so I can either moan about it or I can attack the hill and we think of it like I don't know, like I, again, this might be a male thing too, but we think like I screwed up, I didn't do that right, I lost the opportunity. No, try again. Yeah, you know, unless your partner says nope, I mean try again. And if you don't, I.
Speaker 2:I think the failed opportunity is is if you just say, oh, I, you know you go into shame, I can't do this right, or you start to blame her give it another shot, try again. You know. You know what I really, I I got defensive there. I actually really wish I would have done this. Can I, can I try it again in a different way? Man, that she may say, no, I'm, I'm done with that conversation, okay, but she will recognize the behavioral truth. You're trying to come, you're trying to correct your mistakes, you're trying to show up in a more compassionate, different way. That's that's, that's different.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. And change isn't easy, right, change, change is hard. But and here's what too, man, like, if you if especially for any guy that's done a disclosure think about the hardest thing you've ever done. Well, you just did a disclosure, so you can do hard things. And I do this exercise where I try to get them to think about some of the hard things that they've done in their life and more often than not, they don't put the disclosure down. I'm like dude, that was probably one of the hardest things you've ever done and you just did it. Like you can do hard things, you can grow in empathy. You can learn how to show up. Like you don't know how to show up, it feels overwhelming. You didn't have that modeled for you, that's okay. Like you can learn how to do that because you can do hard things, you don't have to shy away from it, you can lean into it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that. That's so powerful. I was just thinking earlier, too, as a tip partners will smell ulterior motives a mile away. I'm just going to say so if you're coming, you're trying to show empathy, or if you this is another, maybe obvious thing If you're trying to ask for forgiveness or you're trying to own something that you did that you screwed up with, but then you say but in there somewhere and you try to say but you know, you really weren't, you were really not. I don't appreciate how you came to me. Like the partner's not going to appreciate that. Or if they feel like you're just doing these things to get to the result of trust. If that's the end goal, versus showing up in a new way, having a different kind of relationship, that's the way you get to rebuild. That's the beauty of this. I mean. I think of that intimacy pyramid.
Speaker 2:Couples are sometimes rebuilding intimacy, sometimes building it for the first time. What a gift, first time. What a gift. We can relate to each other in a new way that we've never had this experience before of actually being fully vulnerable and being fully seen and known. I mean, instead of having a curated view, version of myself that I'm sharing and hoping that people will love me. Man, what if? And I see this happen way more often than not, I mean almost always when I share the good, the bad, the ugly, and I'm vulnerable with it and authentic with it. And most partners see that and they see the vulnerability and they they don't exploit it. They don't they actually. You know it's painful to hear the trees about sexual betrayal, but you're fully known, you did something now and actually don't have to hide yourself and she stayed like that's. How incredible is that?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, oh gosh man, yeah, that's so, that's so beautiful and yeah, I don't even know what else to say that to that. Really, I mean it's just, it's, it's remarkable, it really is, dan, let's, I want to shift that kind. You know the last part of our conversation here Again, you know, kind of fun to riff with you on this a little bit before we started. But I want to talk a little bit about this, this, whatever you want to call it.
Speaker 1:We've heard shift in power, you know, or control or what I don't know. You know, but, and specifically to disclosure and disclosure dynamics, so many people who have gone through that feel this sort of and I'm just going to call a shift in power. I don't know that. I like that, you know, settled on that, but I think it's, you know, it's easy to wrap your mind around, I think, for conversation purpose, but so for for men, often, like in a disclosure, there's a shift in the dynamic in the marriage, because now all of the information is out and they're not withholding anything.
Speaker 1:Their partner knows everything now, and so there's this almost sort of sense of like that power that they had or again, whatever you want to call it, they had something over the other is gone. And now sometimes there can be like this feel like I'm, like I'm lost, I don't know, like where's my, where's my place, like I don't like they. Just there's this tangible difference in that dynamic. How does that shift? And I don't know if it contributes to exhaustion, as we've kind of talked about, or discouragement in the recovery process, but let's just kind of talk about that for a minute, just to sort of this shift and and that dynamic.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, you, you took it in a different area than I. I appreciate what you said, cause I I often see getting into recovery feels like a power imbalance or difference. Is that like the partner feels like they're holding all the cards, they're the ones in power, they get to call the shots or set, you know, fundraiser, all that kind of stuff, and a lot of guys will feel controlled or punished again. They'll feel like sometimes it feels like a dynamic where it feels like she's being my mom and I have to like be a good boy or something. That's that's the, that's the feeling sometimes the guys have. They may say that outright or just have that feeling.
Speaker 2:What I often say and I think, I think about, I think power, there is power. It's healthy power and power is not a bad thing. I think of empowerment is a beautiful thing. I think we think of power like domination. That's not in a healthy way, that's not what it's supposed to be for, even whether that's the, the struggler or the partner, I don't think this is ever meant to be. I'm going to dominate you and entitled, kind of deserving. It's more of an empowerment and that's the way I see it. But like, if you think about it. You know, this is what I share with my guys. How many months, years, decades, were you holding truth? Were you holding you know, information from your partner? And if, if, knowledge is power, whether you felt it or not, you were wielding power for so long in your, your marriage or your relationship, so long, and that could be decades.
Speaker 2:So, post discovery, post disclosure, the goal is to rebalance it. But it will feel a bit imbalanced for a while and we try to give. What was taken from your partner was choices we try to give partners, especially in disclosure. We talk about the partners as a bunch of choice. Let's say, if people are choosing to abstain for a bit sexually, you know the partner oftentimes will be able to be the one kind of controlling what feels safe, moving forward when they feel safe. But more we're shifting it. The goal to make the ultimate goal of the relationship isn't to have, you know, her always in a one up position, you always in a one down position. That's never the goal, but the rebalancing I think that's what you're saying like there's a rebalancing and it feels, really can feel, lost in it. You know, I've, I'm doing everything and it still feels like you know, like we're not getting any progress, or or she's still calling all the shots.
Speaker 2:I think over time, the more safe and trustworthy you continue to be. I don't know, I just see that start to shift because then, if we're not, the next level of the pyramid is vulnerability. I've just seen if, the more trustworthy the men that I work with are how they really work towards rebuilding safety, their protective walls start to come down too. They start more vulnerable. They may actually and I've seen some really I don't know if you see this too amazingly beautiful things from betrayed partners where they start to.
Speaker 2:You know, oh, I can see. You know I can never excuse the behaviors of the betrayal. I can never. You know, I never would want it. But I, the behaviors of the betrayal, I can never. You know, I never would want it.
Speaker 2:But I, I see, I see what led you to this point.
Speaker 2:Based on your own trauma or abuse, they start to have empathy for the, the struggler. You know they start to see that. Or they can have some again, not not ever justifying it, but then they'll, they'll start to. You know, I can see where I I could have done more in our marriage earlier. They start to make babies, start to look at them and these things start to happen organically a lot of times, you know, without forcing it. You know a lot of my guys will try to force it. Well, you had a partner, you know, relational dysfunction too, true, but she didn't cause you to act out sexually, like that's not her responsibility. So I don't know, I just see some of that start to shift when, when the men are really doubling down on trying to be safe and trustworthy and try to provide that, that safe place. I don't know, do you see that too? Cause I just feel like I just see partners start to open up more and then things start to level out a lot, a lot more over time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah for sure. And that's, and I think that's where so much of my kind of coaching goes to, in that post kind of right of truth, whether it's I mean really, it's just post right of truth. I mean, you know, because in that wait time for for the impact letter and beyond, is this now real work of showing up differently. How do I show up, how do I continue to show up when I experience, you know this, that you know the opposition or it doesn't.
Speaker 1:Man, I've been doing all these things and I don't feel like it's been noticed, like that's, that's hard, like you know, and and and I'm thankful that guys you know can sometimes, you know, mention that but it's not even about being noticed, it's about because it is noticed, because your behavior is noticed, and that behavioral truth again that you're showing by showing up, by being there, by kind of rewriting, that is communicating more than your words ever could. So, even if you're not getting sort of that affirmation or the hey, you're doing a really good job, like in your recovery. Keep it up. Or you know, I love how you've been showing up and helping me, you know, with my safety, like you're probably not going to, you know, get that in most cases. So it's. But. But it's noticed, you know, because it's the, it's that behavior, right?
Speaker 2:Also too, and I love that. I'll just say, you know, our in after trauma, our, our brains are wired towards threat cues. So we're going to notice threat and danger cues more than we will have kind of safety cues. So I'm just saying that because I think sometimes it may not be. I mean, it's noticed but it may not acknowledged. But sometimes the partner is probably more focused on threats.
Speaker 2:So as a couples therapist, if I'm working with a couple, you know the struggler can do me a lot of favors by showing the more I can see change. I'm bringing those out. Maybe the partner didn't notice a difference in a certain situation. I'm actually going to bring it up. You know what? I really see him showing up differently now than he would have in the past. I really see, you know I think I'm not going to say this I think of a couple where he would walk out sometimes in session like he couldn't handle it. He's hanging in there. It's not easy, but he's hanging in there and he's really trying to show up with empathy. That's pretty remarkable and I can say that it may not be at the finish line but he's really working at it. He's showing up differently and I feel like those things if the partner, you're right, the partner may not give acknowledgement of those things, but I'm going to try to do that too because I see it of those things, but I'm going to try to do that too because I see it. And if, but if the person's not wildly inconsistent, you don't give me much to work with, I don't have much leverage, but I'm going to start.
Speaker 2:If you really work on it, I'm, you know, people that you have that are trusted in your life will, will note it as well, and you'll get the validation from other men for sure, because, you know, I think of like a sobriety birthday, for example. Someone has a year and they're wanting a parade from their partner, from other guys. You'll get it. I mean, that's a huge accomplishment, such a big deal, yeah, so huge. But just think, from the partner side, you know you got a year of not doing the things that she already thought you weren't doing, as a kind of foundation to the relationship. That's, you know, and that's going to be another reminder of betrayal, like it's so just there's. So it's so complicated for the, for the trade anyway. I just think there's so many things about, about that, that to not lose hope, and you know this is being having a community of people who get it, being surrounded by those people so, so important. It's like to go back to burnout, like keeping, keeping supported through all this and yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it carries in your corner. Yeah, yeah, it carries a lot of weight. And I just got this image of this. You know those old school kind of doctors scales where you'd get on it and then they'd move it, move it and move it Right, and so as that weight kind of keeps showing, scales where you get on it and then they'd move it, move it and move it right, and so as that weight kind of keeps showing up, you know down that scale, right, and finally it it tips or whatever, right, and so I think you know there's.
Speaker 2:There's a lot to that.
Speaker 1:But you know, and that you know just keep showing up, you know, there there's, there's a weight in that that you know. In a sense will, you know, tip the scale, but not again in that kind of power sort of way, but just in the way maybe it's received and the healing of the relationship. And yeah, anyway, that was a random.
Speaker 2:I love it though, but it's the image like we're never going to get back here and if we're not actually moved the weight over, we won't get there, because that's but a lot of it, unfortunately, the onus is on the struggler and the person who did the betraying to to lead the way, and and that just is the case. I've just seen when you can do that and lead the way with your own recovery, also relational healing and trying to restore man, that goes. That goes again. It goes a long way for the trade yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1:I'm curious what your thoughts are on this quote. I heard this on a on a podcast that talked about acting in which was so good on shame, and he said we damaged her trust in us at her expense and we rebuild her trust in us at our expense.
Speaker 2:I love, I wow. That's powerful. I almost want to change the last word of expense to a more expensive. We can mean a posture of humility, openness, compassion, not expense, like I'm a martyr.
Speaker 1:It's more of a risk kind of like yeah, like the yeah, being vulnerable and being yeah, seeing you're doing something different, almost yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2:That I love because I, I I get a little bit. If it's I'm gonna do this and I feel victimy about it or I feel like I'm a martyr, that's not a good, good place. But yeah, if it's like I get to do this and I'm going to take the lead, I'm going to take the risk and I'm going to initiate those recovery check-ins that are scary. I'm going to show up and not just avoid the tough conversations, I'm going to lean into them like I never did before and all that kind of stuff, and I'm going to forego some stuff. We're working on a workbook that goes with the Intimacy Pyramid book.
Speaker 1:Oh nice.
Speaker 2:Yeah, finally, it would have been forever. There's an exercise that I'm really thinking about in terms of restoring. There's this idea of like, what did I take from our relationship and what do I need to restore? Not quite like a ninth step amends, but there's also things. It could be spiritual what did I take?
Speaker 2:No-transcript, with his wife working outside the home, and so he basically not like, he didn't let her but he discouraged her from it, but there are some dreams that she had of, you know, whatever job they have wanted to do, and at some point there's a, a restoration like I'm, I'm. If you want to go pursue this, we'll make it happen for you, and I think there's something like I I I kind of discouraged you because I was insecure. I want to restore some of that and that might be part of maybe that means I have to take on some more responsibilities or do some other things and what other? What are the things that I take from you that need to be restored? And emotionally in the relationship I'm going to show up more. I feel like there's that kind of posture of that's part of a living a mess, if you want to look at it as well. So maybe bigger, yeah. So I don't just think of that idea of how do I restore and if I can put that mindset that the partner will notice that for sure, yeah.
Speaker 1:A hundred percent. Gosh man, that's so good. Is there going to be an element in there? Something came to my mind as you're talking about. This is like grieving together, like yes, yeah, yeah for sure that's such a like.
Speaker 2:I see couples stalled. I don't know if you've seen this too. When I see couples stalled, they're kind of stalled earlier on. Maybe they haven't, you know, not establishing a new footing for the new relationship. Maybe it's predisposure trust rebuilding the stalled, the addict's not consistent, the struggle is not consistent enough with their behaviors or actions. The addict's not consistent, or the struggle is not consistent enough with their behaviors or actions. This is one where I see an intimacy pyramid, where where vulnerability is still locked away from the part of the betrayed partner and a lot of times let me back up for a second.
Speaker 2:This may be overly simple, but a lot of times I think of the kind of three main phases of healing. First it's my story, as you know, this is the betrayed, betrayer story. So the struggler story, partner, partner to try and invest everything this is before disclosure everything about addiction or about you know behaviors and trying to understand what the resources are. Partner doubles down like really tries to understand what's happening, what happened to me, to the wife, if in this situation, the next phase is her story. So that's where impact letter comes. There's restitution, there's all this kind of stuff that plays out, unfortunately, many men I work with don't do as hard of work in that phase as the partner did to understand them. And so if the if the struggler can really really say, okay, I'm really going to try to understand, not just what happened in August of you know 2007, that's not significant, but you know what the grieving is. You know, when we had our second child and I was, I just I was acting out, I wasn't there, I wasn't present. Or when your father was dying, I couldn't handle it and I, I was acting out, I wasn't there, I wasn't present. Or when your father was dying, I couldn't handle it and I was not present with you. Like those are the things we can start to say I, instead of choosing to join you in those difficult situations, I opted out, I avoided them and I was not present, I was sexually acting out. When we can start to acknowledge those things and grieve grieve with the partner, I feel like when she's she gets that, that you get it. Now we can start to share, do kind of grieving together.
Speaker 2:What our life was and that's the third phase is our story and how man we could have. We could have been this power couple. I thought we were but we weren't. Who could we have been if, if you were only honest about all this from the beginning and we could have like who, who we're now, the solidity of now, what if we would have had that from the beginning? And man, our life, that we had all these things together, there's, there's, it's, it's beautiful, I can see it, but there's also some memories from the past that are really tainted and I have to keep that in mind. And so I think there's being able to grieve together as a couple.
Speaker 2:What did the addict, what did this addiction take from us and not just from you or from me, and who can we? Then I think we can actually start to say who can we become, and that's the hope. Like I, most guys, I talked to you guys. You talked about grief. What was it earlier this year? Right, yeah, grief and lament. We try to avoid those a lot of times. We just I don't want to grieve. What's the phrase? What? What we resist persists and when we can actually together as a couple man, we can start now, we can actually heal and we can actually start to move forward. To me, that's the that's so beautiful to be a part of, when couples are willing to do that. It's so. It's such an honor because I know it's difficult, but they're that. That's the way that they're going to kind of continue healing and cleaning out the pain and the wounds so they can get to the next phase for the, for their relationship.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. And you know, it's just like grieving that and then also coming back to this place of hope that we can be this couple, yeah, like, yeah, our story's not over, yeah. So it's like, you know, coming through that grief and to hope for what now can be is such a, such a beautiful beautiful and it's real, it's authentic, it's.
Speaker 2:It's. It's not just I don't know image, you know projected onto a screen. It's like this is us, this is, this is fully real, it's. That's the beauty.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man, dan, I, I want to keep you for like five more hours and just talk about all kinds of things, but we're going to. We're going to wrap up. Brother, I want to thank you so so much for being on the show today, for just man your heart, your work, your expertise, the ways that you have even impacted, you know, clinicians and coaches and just gosh like you guys are doing some really great work, man, and I'm super thankful that we got to sit together today. I hope our listeners just feel incredibly blessed. So thank you for being here, man.
Speaker 2:It's an honor to join you, Aaron. Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and thank you for joining us today on Becoming Whole. It's always an honor to walk alongside you as we pursue deeper healing, greater integrity and a life rooted in the love of Christ. But before we sign off, I want to personally invite you to two transformational opportunities coming up this fall. For the men, our Awaken Retreat is happening October 3rd through the 5th. This will be one unforgettable weekend where you'll experience being known and named through brotherhood, the Father's heart and embodied healing.
Speaker 1:Whether you're just starting out on your recovery journey or you've been walking the path for years, this retreat is for you and for the women, the Sacred by Design retreat is happening November 7th and 8th. It's a unique space for women to slow down, connect deeply with God and rediscover the beauty of who they are, beyond shame, beyond striving. When is the last time you experienced true awe? Make sure you sign up for a time of wonder and healing and if you or someone you know is ready for something different, something deeper. Both of these retreats are now open, but space is limited For all the details and to reserve your spot, just click the link in the show notes and, until next time, keep pressing into the truth, keep walking in grace and keep becoming whole.
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