Becoming Whole
Relationships and sexuality are areas of life that can be beautiful or confusing, life-giving, or painful. Becoming Whole is a conversational podcast for men, women, and families seeking to draw nearer to Jesus as they navigate topics like sexual integrity, relational healing, spiritual health, and so much more.
Becoming Whole
The Intersection of Manhood & Recovery
Culture keeps shouting two bad options for men: shrink your strength or dominate with it. We want to share something truer and more human —a third way shaped by Jesus, the one who washed feet, wept with friends, and laid down his life. This conversation explores how Christ-shaped masculinity can transform recovery from a project of behavioral control into a path of formation, where shame is faced, strength is refined, and love prevails.
If you’re ready for a path that turns shame into strength, clarifies desire, and forms a man who gives his good for others’ good, this one’s for you. Listen, share with a friend, and tell us: where do you want to grow in Christ-like strength today? And if this helped you, subscribe, leave a review, and pass it on to someone who needs hope.
Resources:
An Invitation for our annual women's retreat.
Sacred By Design Women's Retreat 2025 - Register Today!
Free Resources to help you on your journey to Becoming Whole
👉Men's Overcoming Lust & Temptation Devotional
👉Women 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Women overcoming unwanted sexual Behavior)
👉Compass 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Wives who are or have been impacted by partner betrayal)
Today's culture tells men to either tone it down or turn it up, repress your masculinity or unleash it without limits. But for men in recovery, neither path works. You've tried powering through, you've tried hiding, and both have left you empty. What if recovery isn't the end of your manhood, but the beginning of the real thing? What if the model for true manhood isn't found in culture but in a carpenter from Nazareth who washed feet, wept with friends, and laid down his life? Jesus not only forgives us, he also shows us how to be a man. A man who takes responsibility, seeks healing, and leads with love. Hey friends, welcome into the Becoming Whole podcast. I'm Aaron Taggart, and I'm joined today by Josh Glazer to unpack how Christ-shaped masculinity can turn shame into strength, reframe sexuality, and help you become the man you were created to be. Josh, what is up, man?
SPEAKER_00:What is up? Aaron, there's not time for that. There's not time. We're recording a podcast. I can't get into all that other stuff. Uh I'm no, I'm I'm eager to get into this. We you and I have been talking a little bit for a while about the intersection of manhood and recovery for people. And I'm I'm thinking about our listeners. So whether you're married or single, male or female, I do think that we're going to get into today has implications for all of us, but we we did want to speak specifically to men who are in recovery because there's some there's some tension spots, some cruxes in the climb, some pitfalls, I think that men specifically can get into as they're trying to walk away from unmanosexual behavior. Uh both things that led them into the problem to begin with, but also things that keep them stuck, even while they're trying to enter fully into recovery. So I'm looking forward to the conversation that ensues.
SPEAKER_01:So, Josh, as we talk about this intersection of manhood and recovery, where does your mind go first?
SPEAKER_00:Shame. I think I think for a lot of men, both uh getting getting going in recovery and even through recovery, experience a lot of shame in the area of their manhood. Uh, and I think a lot of confusion also, that maybe that would be the second thing. So shame and confusion, confusion about like what I'm what am I what am I shooting for here? Because I think that we're in such a hyper-sexualized culture, even for those of us who have grown up in Christian circles, I think there can still be a sense of like, if I'm if I'm and I'm I'm not gonna stand by these words, but on some level, if I'm feeling like I'm I'm trying to tame a part of what makes me a man, and maybe even sexual sobriety feels a little bit like emasculating in some way, like, and some of the tasks of recovery feel shaming or emasculating. You know, I've got to talk about my feelings, I've gotta say no to my sexual desires, things like that. So I don't think any of those things are true, but I do think that shame, confusion gets into the mix for a lot of guys when it comes to to recovery. Well, I what about you? What anything close to that or different than that?
SPEAKER_01:Disappointment, maybe, you know, and maybe oneself, maybe that's probably shame. Uh no, but just uh thinking like, you know, uh, I had these big dreams, or I was gonna do this, or I was gonna do that, and I'm falling short of that. Yes. This isn't the type of you know, husband I wanted to be. This isn't the type of man like I thought I I would be. And I think we have like, and it's so important to be careful there because I think you know, we can get into we could say things that that maybe we don't truly believe like in our hearts, but they're but there's so much in the forefront of our minds that we can start to agree with those things and we can start to really wear that shame uh as I am a you know disappointment of a man or I am this or you know, it's like that lens is not not helpful, uh, and it's not it's not what the Lord intended, right? It's not what Jesus, um, Jesus doesn't say in in the word, you know, like I've made you know bad men or I've made you know that like his creation is good. Uh and the and the enemy is thwarting that and wants to thwart that and even internally, so that internal dialogue to kind of turn ourselves inward, kind of into shame, to begin to speak, you know, these things that would be contrary to what what what the Lord's actually intended.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, but I I think it's I think you're so right to identify it though. I think it's a I think it's a good because if we don't if we don't if we don't let people know about the shame, if we don't let people know about the confusion, we don't let people know about how we feel disappointed or that we're the disappointment, then it can just get buried into that that place inside of us and just just perpetuate, you know, it just can stay there. So there's a difference between speaking it out as as and and kind of ruminating on it as though it is true. It's the you know, foundational truth who I am, and getting it out as I'm wrestling with these thoughts, I'm wrestling with these feelings in my heart. And I think I think you tapped a tender spot for me because my wife and I are coming up on 24 years of marriage, and actually we we will have been married 24 when this podcast airs. And I I I can tell you that the the spaces in my life that have felt most shamed as a man or most shameful as a man have come out in relationship with this woman who knows me better than anybody else. And so when she puts her finger on or says something about, or the look on her face reveals that I have not been the man that I desire to be. Oh my gosh, like uh I was telling her recently, and and that I I get why I get why people get divorced. And I don't mean that I'm on, you know, anywhere close to getting divorced, but but the sh the shame and the pain of like I am not what I always imagined I could be for you. And and and I know that in some marriages that that's exactly what the man hears from life. You are not who I thought I married. You're not the man I married, you're not who I thought you were like, it's just brutal, so, so painful. And I think that gets into, and maybe we'll get into this later, but why this topic is so important, because I think that there are ways that if our recovery is kind of neutered, so to speak, if we if we kind of just look at recovery through a through a lens of it has nothing to do with manhood or womanhood, I think we can miss some of these places in a man's heart that specifically want for something in relationship to his wife, or want for something in relationship to other men, or want for something as he stands and looks himself in the mirror, that that are power either powerfully helpful in in launching him forward towards recovery, aspirational, or they're they're crippling. Does that make sense? Am I am I making sense?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, yeah, absolutely absolutely. And yeah, I will we're we're going on 19 years, uh, my wife and I. And so, but and I resonate with so much of you know what what you're sharing, you know, and and just the sense of how much you know the the good, bad, and the ugly, like she's she sees it all. She's experienced, you know, so much of that, even in you know, through my own recovery and healing and and coming to kind of yeah, changing some ways of relating, you know, that uh weren't so great in the past, you know, that are very different now. Not always perfect, but still, you know, much a much different place than that than they they were. And so it it does it is a constant, almost never-ending sort of it's part of the journey, I think. You know, and uh I love that word journey because it's kind of adventurous and you don't always know uh how you're gonna get to the end, but you kind of have this sense of, you know, when we're watching a some like a movie, you sort of have this idea of the ending, but it the all the things along the way, and you're like, you know, on the edge of your seat or gasping because you know, one of the characters, you know, died, or whatever it might be, right? You don't know the end from the beginning, but sort of with this humility, and that maybe that's what's really coming up, is just entering into this into this this cross section of manhood and recovery with humility uh on the journey, and to be able to receive a word from you know my wife that before would have just left me in a in a like don't I don't want to go there, I don't want to talk about these things, like and just a softness, you know, there's a there's a change. Um, and I think that maybe is you know humility.
SPEAKER_00:Wait, so Aaron, I'm I'm thinking about some of the guys listening. First of all, shout out to men and women listening who are single who are not married. Yeah. Because I think that you too can experience some of that same, whether it's you know, marriage is in the future for you, or or you might be at a spot where you've lost a marriage or you're still you want to be married and you're waiting, or some of you who've decided I'm not gonna marry, I'm I'm devoting my life to the Lord and serving him. Praise God, uh, wherever you are. So maybe for those folks listening, where where does that shame button get pushed for you most? Maybe it's in in just that very fact that you're not married, you know, even if it's by choice that you're not married and and yet the people around you are kind of like, well, so when are you gonna get married? And because shame, I think shame can be so debilitating. But Aaron, I think what I wanted to ask you was in what ways would you say that as you're as you're thinking back on the things that have changed for you, how how is your because that we're talking about manhood as it relates to recovery. So in what ways has the shame for you been connected to a sense of your manhood? And in what ways is the softening for you that you described an outflow of your manhood or different, a different kind of manhood than you thought, or I don't know, what whatever you'd fill that blank in, but like just overlay what you just said, overlay manhood on top of that, and yeah, what's specific to you as as you feel like your own sense of manhood with that?
SPEAKER_01:Man, that's that's deep. Manhood um for me, it's really growing in the sense of I am becoming, and again, I go back to the journey um sort of analogy, but I'm becoming something better. Uh, there's sort of more, there's more to be done uh in a way, and not in a way like of striving or I've got to check this box or check that box, but I think it's growing an awareness of maybe where I've had some weaknesses or shortcomings and allowing the Lord to come into those places to make them not as tender, like you know, like something like a word doesn't cut the same way um when there's been healing. Uh, you know, a look doesn't cut the same way when there's been you know some growth. Um, and so I think as I as I think about, yeah, right. I know that's probably even stirring up some things like for people, man, the words and the looks that that we might receive from others, you know, and how do we hold that and what does it do to us? But I think as I think about my manhood in those sort of ways, that there is this sense of like I'm still I'm still becoming. Like I'm not there, like it's it's not complete. I'm not complete in that in that sense until you know, and until I'm in eternity, this is an ongoing process of getting sharper and and growing in these different areas.
SPEAKER_00:So I so it's part of what I hear in that is I think there's a a real kind of rescuing word for people listening for to begin thinking, like, let's let's forsake the idea that manhood is is a point of arrival, wherever that would be. You know, it's you you turned 18, you turned 21, you got into the military, you got married, you had your first kids, you got the dream job, you whatever, whatever whatever it would be that you kind of say that those false finish lines. And if we were to just kind of frame up, like manhood is journey. Womanhood is too. It's a it's a parallel but different journey. But manhood is journey, and rather than a place of arrival, it it is a a journey that we're on. So I mean, just riffing off what you're saying about journey and what that could do to our own sense of shame, reducing shame. So when we realize there's a rough edge, when we realize there's a space where we're letting someone down, we're letting ourselves down, we're still in disobedience, we're still wrestling with our sin. Instead of that being like the a sentence over us of thou art not a man, it's a uh no, I'm I'm still on the journey, and that is what men do. It reminds me that I'm gonna I won't I was gonna it remind me of a quote by C.S. Lewis about just the most important part part is that we don't give up. And so instead of kind of thinking like, okay, a man is not supposed to do these things, if we were to say, well, a man is is supposed to keep getting up when he fails to do those things, you know. So kind of holding intention that we haven't we have something we're aspiring to as men, and we are men. We are men and we're on the journey, and that's what men do. Yeah, I think there can be something helpful for people more Christ-like in that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah. And I'm reminded, you know, too, as we're talking about this in particular, I've uh had the opportunity to do a lot of work with forming men that Jefferson Bethke and John Tyson have put together. And one of the things that they say sort of over and over and over again is that men aren't born, they're formed. So there is this real sense of formation and and not just uh, and again, like it's not just like, oh, I've I'm now formed into this and I'm done. It's an ongoing sort of formation. You know, we are constantly being formed uh and informed. Uh the things that we take in affect us in in different ways. And so what are we doing to to allow those to to shape us in in these in these positive ways?
SPEAKER_00:I like that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:One one thing I I kind of gasped when you were talking earlier, and I don't know if this this may be just a comment that we don't need to spend a lot of time on, but it struck me that the places of weakness that we feel ashamed of ashamed about can often be those places where we where our masculine strength comes out sideways and hurts somebody. So my wife says something and and it hits this this wound or it exposes some area where I'm I'm not who I want to be and it kicks up before the shame can come out as anger. And I can get either passive aggressive or you know, that brooding male silence in the in the house or just overly stressed with our kids, or or some men may you know launch out yelling at their their wives. I mean, what whatever that or for our audience, we go to porn and it's this this space of anger where we haven't we're not dealing with what's really hurting, and we we run into porn where we're in control. We get to be in charge and we get to we're not gonna be hurt, we're gonna, we're gonna hurt. We're not gonna uh be uh overpowered, we're gonna overpower. In contrast, that doing the work of opening those rough edges to the Lord, acknowledging our sin, acknowledging our iniquity, and acknowledging our inadequacy. And in in time, actually makes us men who are stronger. And instead of that strength, that that kind of boyish, adolescent, you know, temper tantrum strength coming out sideways, the way you described it is you're actually able to stand with a hard word, and it doesn't cut you down the same way. There's an inner strength that that comes out of you because of the work of recovery, the hard work of walking in sanctification with Jesus. So that when your wife says something about you that's negative, you can be like, hmm, yep, that's you know what, you're right. I'm sorry. That wasn't, you know, there's just a very different demonstration of of strength. It's a it's a response being and is responsible for what's happening rather than reacting and trying to push that place to feel so shameful away. So way to go, man. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you. Josh, let me ask you another question here on um just some of the work that uh you've done with men. And I know you've been doing this for you've been doing this for quite a while.
SPEAKER_00:Since I was a boy.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, well, there you go. When it comes to leading and loving as Christ intended, in in relationship, where do you see men most commonly misunderstanding what true manhood looks like?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, great question. Two things pop right away. I think you've got two different responses. They're not that they're often probably expressed in one kind of manner or another, but I think men can even flip-flop back and forth between these two. The first is that men miss the loving part and just do the leading part. I'm supposed to lead, I'm in charge. Um, my for example, for a married man, my wife's supposed to submit to me. And the number of stories we've heard over the years from husbands and wives in recovery. I mean, I'm I remember sharing at a parenting conference years ago, and I was talking about Christ-like love and how husband, wife or husband's supposed to love his wife this way. And this wife, God bless her, comes up to me at the end. She waits for a she waits for an opening when there's nobody else near. And then she just kind of steps up and quietly says what you were just talking about, how a husband is supposed to love his wife. I, I, my husband does not love me anywhere close to that. She got connected to some of the women on our team and ends up there's just all sorts of abusive, manipulative, coercive stuff in the name of this man is the leader of the home. And uh it was it's awful. And that kind of stuff happens. It happens between pastors and parishioners, it happens between husbands and wives. So that the leading without love is the one. And if if we bear the image of God uniquely in our manhood, the image that gives of what God is like, and and I think the image that those men have of what God is like is just cruel and it's and it is not scriptural. It's it's it's gross. So if you are a man and that's kind of where you are, I want to just, as a word of compassion to you, say your image of God is making you into somebody that he is not and he never intended you to be. And he wants you to realize and know him and the loving leader that he is over you. On the other side is men who, when they think about love, all they all they've got is kind of a, and I think this is more and more real in our 21st century, but a disempowered, kind of uh watery, just go with whatever kind of love that says that doesn't have a backbone that can't stand up to that which is wrong. And then so a man in a marriage relationship in that regard might be, you know, like whatever, whatever you say, dear. I'll I'll just be quiet. I'll, you know, men have hurt others. I don't want to be a man who hurts others. Uh men have been abusive, they've used their power to control. I don't want to be one of those guys. And so they just kind of acquiesce all their God-given strength and uh and leadership and kind of step aside. And I think that too is a mistake. In some ways, a less harmful mistake, but but also a harmful mistake. Because leadership and and and more broadly, whether you you're you have a specific area of leadership or not, if you're a man and you're acquiescing your manhood, you you you are leaving open to those around you, whether it's family or friends or just the culture around you, you are leaving them open to something that you were meant to carry, you were meant to bear, you were meant to take that hit. The longer I've been a leader, the longer I've been a husband, the more I'm like, oh my gosh, like I don't understand those who aspire to leadership. I mean, I kind of do. I think they're a different fabric than me, and I admire them greatly, but like, but some of the, some of the the risk, some of the weight, some of the burden of leadership is uh is it makes sense why leadership is meant to be something that servants do. Because leaders do take hits that others don't take and they bear burdens that others don't take, uh, don't don't bear. Um and then more broadly for men, I think that there's there's correlation. And then I'm trying to make a distinction. I don't think that men are automatically leaders because they're men. I don't think that's I know that some people believe that. I I don't I don't find that in scripture. I think that there are certain roles that that men are called to by God. Um, but not not because they're more intelligent, not because they're more physically fit. If anything, it's just, yep, I'm gonna put men, you you serve in this way, but maybe that's a whole nother conversation. I'm not sure we want to get into. But so this so that was a long answer. But the to to sum up, on the one side, using strength to and and kind of a uh machismo leadership without love, the other is kind of a quote unquote love that actually doesn't have a backbone to love like Christ loves. So you hear all that. What what pops in that for you? What would you agree to say?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and I wanted to go back to to like the first thing I thought, you know, is uh well done, kind of I think articulating the two sides of that. Um, I reson like resonate with both of those sides at some point, and um it's very helpful uh to hear it put that way. But I when you were talking about the first one, kind of that sort of um almost like a misuse of the power without the love, right? Like being just going right for the leading, like I'm gonna lead with sort of a lack of gentleness or love, or and and the first thing that popped in my head is you know, it's it if we say God is and we pause, like what is one of the first words that come to mind? And for me, it was God is love, yeah. And I'm like, okay, well, shoot, like if God is love, then how am I showing up as that in my relationship as I lead my life? If God is love, how am I leading in love? Um, and letting that sort of frame that. And I think, man, what a that uh I I that could be a game changer, you know, because the we want to lead and we want to do well, you know, and and and whatever that means, you know, we everything's sort of measured in success, I feel like, you know, and so like how successful am I at leading or doing these things? And that's where a lot of the shame comes in. Like, man, I've I've gone to porn, I'm I'm acting out, I'm doing these things. And so, man, I'm not I'm not leading well. And and and and then I don't love well because I'm like my shame and it comes out sideways, and now I'm angry. And and so I I think, man, there's so many things I think that get into that. But if we like just again, that God is love and letting that sort of be the okay. So here, like now sit in that. Okay, if God is love, what does that invoke for you as far as you how do you want to lead if you're sitting in like God is love?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. And uh to be just vulnerable for a minute, I think out of those two poles of mistakes that men make and and in that regard, men make, I probably err on this on the side of the second, where I'm more likely to be the guy who says, you know, I know men have hurt. I mean, that was my experience growing up. And it wasn't a full story, but it was a story that that really took hold in my life. I saw men hurting women, uh, emotionally, physically, and I was I was determined not to be that kind of man. But I but it didn't leave me with much of a, well, then what kind of man am I supposed to be? Um, what what is what does my manhood look like then? And and there was fear that got in there for me and all those things. I think a corrective, a helpful corrective for both is defining, well, what does it mean that God is love? What is love? And one of my favorite definitions, I I I haven't found one I like more. So if somebody's listening and they're like, oh, I got one you might like more, you know, shoot us an email, we'd like to hear it. But is in general, and I'm gonna, there are different ways to articulate this, but in general, love is giving of a good gift, giving all the good you have for the good of another. And it's such a helpful thing as we think about sexual addiction recovery or growing in sexual integrity, because if I am meant to give the good of me for someone else's good, it's me giving of myself for their number one, I have to believe that I am a good gift. And and Caravoy Tivo writes about this like you have to recognize that you that you that you have good gifts and you are a good gift to give. And so is manhood a gift to bring to the equation or not? Is it a gift to those around? And I don't mean like a, you know, I'm a gift, worship, you know, I mean, but but rather like has God given me something good in my body as a man? Is there something good about the the the my deep voice, about my muscles, about my stature, about the way my brain works, about the ways that I'm different from a woman? Is there something, is there a good gift in the area of my sexuality, my sexual desire? It doesn't mean that all that I'm perfect. It doesn't mean that everything about me doesn't need to, I don't need you know, refinement or sanctification, but is there good to give there? And if I don't know what that good is, and I think for our audience, like, what is the good of your sexuality? What is the good of your sexual desire? And if you don't know that it is good, then I would argue if you're married, your your sex life with your wife is going to be severely crippled. Like you have to, you have to get to, and this is a topic for another podcast, but like, why is your sexuality as a man as a man a gift to your wife? Why is your body, how is your body a gift to her? So for love to be love, you have to know the gift that you're giving is a good gift. How do you know that? Well, because what scripture teaches we love because God first loved us. And so we you have to like sit in his presence, like find out, like how, like, Lord, you love me? You love me today, like this. You love my body, you love my so and then and the second half of that is given for the good of another. And so, as opposed to the leadership model, which is just lead, well, what's for what to what end? To what for the good of the other, not for your good, not for as you said, Aaron, not for success, not for you know, being able to have a a great Christmas card that shows all my kids, you know, dressed in the same clothes as me. And and I don't mean that you know if you do that, great, like, but I'm just saying, like, what what's the end? Is it outward appearance or is it really no for the good of another person? Which in the end really is so freeing because it opens up so many doors. Like, if anyway, that yeah, like it's maybe a little beyond the scope of what we're talking about, but can can we form our lives? Can and can our own sexual integrity journey, our own growth as men, be around the idea of becoming those who recognize the good gift we are and that by God's grace and learn to give it away for the good of another.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I'm thinking about thinking about something I learned in in my own journey that that's really hitting right now, and that was getting to this place of realizing that I will never be able to meet all of my wife's needs.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And that's not, I wasn't intended to do that.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_01:Um I can be used by God to minister to her needs. And there was honestly something that happened in me when I first heard that, you know, that like, oh, that I mean, that makes a lot of sense, you know, and all these pressures I put on myself to to be like the perfect leader or the perfect, you know, loving in the perfect ways. And man, I'm falling short, I'm falling short, I'm falling short. Like, whoa, like what freedom to know that I I'm not responsible to meet her all of her needs, but the Lord can use me to minister to them.
SPEAKER_00:That's a great distinction.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and so I think that's just a beautiful way again of like bringing in both sort of the leading and and the loving, because there's that desires in uh in in that in both of those. And I also get this picture of Nehemiah, um, in Nehemiah 4, when he's I think it's four, um, he's he's working to rebuild the wall, and there's a point where like like just I see these families kind of. All around, like in like in my mind as I'm reading this, and and there's a sense of like they're building the wall, but they're also sort of defending and leading like the fan. So I I think of the phrase like build and defend. Like in one hand, you know, you you he kind of had a sword like for defending, and the other hand he had a trowel, uh, as he's maybe sort of doing some of this masonry work to re rebuild the wall. And so this kind of building and defending, and simultaneously kind of being able to hold space for both of those things in our manhood, in our leadership, in the ways that we that we love.
SPEAKER_00:That's beautiful. I love that. And I love the I love that I'm I'm not meant to meet all her needs, but I I can as her husband. And for those singles listening, I can, in the relationship with other people around me, I can help minister to their needs. That's a I've never heard that distinction before. I like that a lot. That is really freeing. It's and it also goes with the journey idea of like I was saying the more I grow, the more I'm connected to others, maybe the more I can minister. And maybe even the more I get clear about like, I'm not really good about ministering in this way. Let me let me resource you or let me encourage you like elsewhere. That's really good, Aaron. I like that a lot. Yeah, thanks.
SPEAKER_01:And it wasn't for me, so that but yeah, I forget where I heard that, but it was uh it's been a just a sweet thing, and and I, you know, I try to keep that in the forefront. And I use that in coaching too. I share that with guys all the time that you know that it's about you know the being sort of allowing God to use them to minister uh and and not so much to to meet. So um, and I'm sure we could keep talking about that for a while. But I I would love to uh and then this has kind of come up a little bit, Josh, uh, already, but I think there's uh I think there's a little bit more that we can say on this, and that is sort of this idea of what might change for a guy in recovery, uh a man in recovery, if he shifts from shame-driven passivity or aggression toward Christ-centered strength.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, maybe maybe we need to s to even start by what is the difference? Like what is what is Christ, what is Christ's strength and what is Christ-centered strength. And I'm I want to just keep that back to you. Like, what comes to mind for you when you think about if a man is supposed to aspire to or operate from a place of Christ-centered strength, and how how do you define that, or what comes to mind for you when you think about that?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I mean, immediately I get this picture of Jesus kind of standing there with his hands open, sort of in a in this posture that that could either be to give or to receive. And I think um Yeah, I don't know. I I I come back to that humility and and and just humbling oneself, humbling myself to know that what I've maybe done doesn't def it's it's not a it's not a sentence for my future. It doesn't mean I'm gonna show up in those same ways. Like so there's a I can receive something better. I can um I don't know if I'm I don't know if I'm helping here.
SPEAKER_00:Well, no, I think I wait, can I jump in? Then you I just bought myself a little bit of time to think as you were talking.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, no, no, it's good.
SPEAKER_00:I think one one of the places where I experienced the most shame as a man over the years, both in recovery, as a leader, as a father, as a husband, as a friend, or when I rub up against places that I have received messages or heard things about what a man is supposed to be, and I don't feel I measure up. Whether it's I think I'm supposed to be stronger physically, more decisive, more courageous, able to do more things around the house, have a have a sex drive that's different than mine, have a different level of confidence. Uh, and that happens a lot in comparison to other men, whether it's explicit from other men saying, you know, this is what real men are like, you know, and they fill in the blank. Um, I know I I'm you and I are both fans of John Eldridge, but I know when his book Wild at Heart came out, there were some, a lot of men who read it and said, this whole like get out in nature thing kind of vibe is not, does not describe me. Like I don't feel that call to warrior, you know, like as Eldridge was talking about it. And I think uh there are ways that I did, ways that I didn't. I I kind of took it metaphorically and symbolically more than literally from him, but but I know that that so for a lot of men, like whether he and I don't think Eldridge meant it this way, but I think some men took that as kind of like, I don't, I don't fit this mold of manhood. So I think one of the places of operating from Christ-like strength is recognizing that that manhood is something primarily bestowed by God and that there are different kinds of men. Just like when Paul writes about different your they're different members of the body, and this part of the body can't say to another part of the body, I have no need of you. If you're laying up those like lists of of of gifts, you know, there's there's apostle. Oh, that's that's manly, you know, that's there's leadership, like that's manly, like, you know, there's uh there's teacher, maybe that, you know, like there's mercy. Yeah. You know, is that like there's there's shepherding? Is that, you know, like I mean, so even looking at that, like, okay, hold on, hold on. If that's a list of of qualities that both men and women can have, gifts that either men or women can have, then what does it mean? It will it it means if nothing else, there are different kinds of men. There are different kinds of women. I will I'll like one of the hardest things for me as a man, like when I first got married, to discover that my wife was stronger in the area of of leadership than I was. And I I would tell you, like, she she I think she has the gift of leadership, and I've seen it in action, and it is amazing to me. It's powerful. And initially it felt really emasculating. I was like, and I remember one day, I it was actually not long after I'd become executive director here too, and I was seeing some failures there too. I remember falling down in my office and I was like, what are you doing, Lord? Are you are you just toying? Are you playing with me? Are you trying to shame me? Like, why are you putting me in these positions where I like my my lack of leadership ability, my lack of leadership gifting is getting shunted like this? And I was thinking especially about my marriage. I was like, Lord, I I don't know, like this just doesn't, it feels emasculating because I'd heard over and over again, like, you know, the man's the leadership, the leader in the home. And there's scriptural basis for that. But what does a man do then who's married to somebody who's got a stronger gift of leadership than he does? And that was my situation. The Lord spoke to me. And it was one of those moments where I knew he spoke because it just lined up with what scripture taught, but it was also not something I expected. What he said was, and it was it'll make me tear up if I think too much about it, but he said, um, I wouldn't entrust her to anybody else. And it came with just this deep sense of like, I want her to have your mercy. I want her to have your shepherding, your tenderness. And so I'm like, okay, how do I lead in our home? Like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna bring it. I'm gonna bring who I am, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna give that good gift as a gift for her good, including bring it to her leadership gifting, that she might grow to be stronger in that way. And I've done not done that perfectly over the years, but I I hope that lines up. So, so coming back to what you're saying and like a whole or law question, like, I think where shame tells us you're not enough, I think oftentimes it's the accuser pointing at something that we're where we're failing and God intends us to grow. So we need to be have that journey mindset. Other times it speaks pointing at other parts of the body and saying you're supposed to be more like them. And Paul's clear, you're not. You you can't say to this, to the eye, the eye can't say to the hand, I have no need of you. Hand can't say to the foot, I have no need of you. Well, that applies to us too. Like we can't say about the part of the body that God's made us to be as men, that that they have no need of us. And so, yeah, so if I could again summarize that, I think there are different kinds of men who are wired differently. That's one of the I think this is one of the things I love about you, Aaron. You because I think you you bear this, like you are a bohemoth of a man, you are a a large man with a deep voice and a beautiful beard, you know, like you've got the strength, but you also have this deep tenderness in you. And and there are times where we we've had had conversations around our our staff table about what's happening in coaching, and you're not giving away people's confidential information, but you're just sharing about you know a little bit of your experience, and we're kind of in awe of the beautiful picture of Jesus that you are, of God that you are, that you've got this masculine physical strength with this tender heart. And um, and anyway, I'm going on in here, but so so men listening, whether married, single, whatever, like and women listening for you, like can you lay down cultural expectations of what a real man looks like or what a real woman looks like, and instead accept by virtue of your biology, you are a man, you are a woman. And in what what kind of man or what kind of woman is is God designed you to be in the world and let him bless and and name you rather than than the cultural expectations. Oh man, I just I just riffed there. I did a little mini sermon.
SPEAKER_01:I didn't mean to, but yeah, no, that that is that is so good. And it actually takes me back. I want to say, I think, you know, especially for uh, you know, a guy who might, you know, really identify with that sort sort of shame-driven passivity, or maybe even the shame-driven sort of uh aggression and working towards that, you know, that Christ-centered strength. Like, how do we move towards that? And and one of the things coming up for me is even, you know, I just got back from from Drew Boa's husband material retreat. Yeah, there is this um sort of this experiential that we did where guys are relating to the masculine. Um, and so looking at pictures of different kinds of guys on the floor and different adjectives and different things, and and I was sort of playing this actor role. And and so after all these guys kind of look each other in the eye and you know, done all this work, I come in dressed like a lumberjack, sort of like this um like you're see, like my strength, right? Right? Like, what is it? You know, you're thinking of a man, boom, like here's a here's a man. I've got an axe, I've got wood under my arms, you know, I'm sharpening my axes, I'm sitting in the chair. And they're all feeling, they're all feeling that in light of you know, their own story without even knowing my story. And I think where I want to go with this is just the sense that whether you're uh sort of in that shame, shame-driven passivity or aggression, but you're wanting to work towards Christ's strength. There is a there's this acknowledgement of the wounds in your own story and in the stories of like we all have a story. So as I look at you, Josh, and and you know what you bring as a as a man, sure, you don't look like me, you know. Uh you're not six foot four. I didn't make you to be six foot four, like all these different things, right? We have all of these unique things about each of us, and it all kind of folds into our story, and there's this soft, there's this compassion for like being able to look at somebody else and like kind of have curiosity. What's their story? You know, and I think that's part of that like moving towards that Christ-centered strength.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And so anyway, I just think that could be helpful, you know, for someone listening, just to kind of, you know, as you're as you're wanting to move more and more towards that Christ-centered strength, um, you know, to just uh to have that curiosity, you know, about about others, and then even yourself, you know, why is that coming up for you and you know, or or those types of things. So um anyway, just the sensitivity there, I think.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Well, I think even naming what you did at the beginning about the that how shame can come out in those two different ways, that alone, I mean that that'll preach like if either that aggression or that passivity, like if you struggle with passivity, you start with aggression, like take a look, take a look under the hood at and how is shame operative, how is that a driving force? And I think what both of us are saying is is really the the love of Christ moving toward us really can strengthen us to uh to to be more at ease with who he's made us to be and and more more courageous to grow and aspire to be who he's made us to be at the same time. Yes.
SPEAKER_01:All right. One uh I think one final place for us. I I want to talk a little bit about community and why community um as we're talking about men and and and you know the masculine and and or recovery, like why is male community, Josh, so essential for men in recovery? And how does isolation sabotage that process?
SPEAKER_00:Wow. Yeah, let's start a whole new podcast. Yeah, so first of all, if we're looking at Christ as an as our example of of man masculinity, uh he knew nothing of a kind of manhood that was the you know 20th and 19th, 20th, 21st century uh American male of like, you know, I can do it on my own. I don't, I don't need others. That there's just like Middle Eastern culture just did not know that. You couldn't do it. I mean, that the there was just no way to to be successful, as opposed to the kind of the self-made man thing. There's there's no paradigm for that. Um on top of that, think about recovery. If you dig into your recovery story that you're talking about, the this the story that led you to where you are, you you're gonna uncover the wounds you experienced in relationship with others. That's where our our most significant wounds happen, either in those relationships or because those relationships left us alone.
SPEAKER_01:That's right.
SPEAKER_00:A father who left, a mother who left, a father who died, a mother who died, um, somebody who, you know, just didn't talk to us about whatever, the wounds from peers, the ridiculing words, the, you know, the breakups, whatever, that's where our wounds happen. If our wounds happen in relationship, we will not be healed in isolation. And so, with all respect to those who say, you know, I've got Jesus, he's all I need. All right. And yet Jesus did not put you here to be alone. Uh, you won't find that kind of Christianity in scripture. And so uh, if you're if you're wounded in in relation from relationship, you need to be healed in relationship. That's some of the beauty of what you're describing in on the husband material retreat. It's these guys coming together and getting vulnerable, getting metaphorically, symbolically naked with each other to let others see the truth. And then do that in the company of men, to be in community with other men. It it combats some of the wounds we've been talking about, these ideas of like what a real man is, what a real man's supposed to be like, what a real man's supposed people to do. And suddenly you're around other men who who on the outside look like they've got all those things. And yet when they open up, when they break themselves open, you're like, oh my gosh, like you're like me. You're you have the same wounds that I do, or at least I can see myself in your wounds. And they see you, and suddenly there's there's a there's a reconnection point and a comfort, and then that is a strengthening space. Anyway, that's that's a that's a quick flyover, but what would you add to that, Aaron?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean, uh two things. I think, you know, I I can't help but think when when we're created and you know, we're made, and it says in Genesis that we're made in his image. Um well God exists in in eternal community with with three God, Father, the Son, and the Spirit. And that's been put inside of us. So there is this uh very tangible uh at a kind of creational level, this need for others in our lives and to experience community. We're not meant to be alone, and and how anyone who's kind of think entered into a healing journey knows the power of being able to share and to to see and to be seen by others in that process um is such a gift. And the other thing I would say too, Jesus had it again, he had his 12 and he had his three. Jesus wasn't just you know, it wasn't just Jesus going doing all these things. I mean, one of the first things he does um before he's doing miracles is he's he's gathering, he's gathering some brothers to really enter into that. And I think that's just hitting me right now, even like, you know, that wow, like before he's really doing miracles, he's he's joining, he's linking arms with with other guys. And sure, there's this sort of rabbi and student sort of relationship, but still like Jesus knew, hey, if I'm gonna if I'm gonna do this, I I need to be around others, you know, not only for my benefit, but for their benefit. And that's the beauty of community, is like I both get to uh give and receive in community. Um, and I think Jesus models that really well.
SPEAKER_00:Um Yeah, you see that in his life. You don't you don't see him just teaching, just pouring out. You see him like they, you know, waiting for food, um, telling his disciples what he need, asking them to pray for him.
SPEAKER_02:Like, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So we live in a in an age that thinks, you know, like, give me the information I need to get better, I'll read the book, I'll listen to the podcast. Some of you right now listen to this podcast, you're thinking, like, this is all I need. I have taught, I mean, I'm a teacher, I love to teach. And when we do end-of-program surveys, where I've been the primary teacher, and we say, you know, what was most meaningful to you? What was, you know, that kind of stuff, I'm like, you know, in my ego, like going, like, hey, you know, I hope they like the teaching, you know, whatever. By and far, without a doubt, every, every time, the the thing that rises to the to the top of like what was most meaningful about this group, what was most meaningful, what was most powerful, what brought about the most change, it is the brotherhood, it is the sisterhood, it is the community. And it is a humbling thing to go like, wait, wait, I can prep this teaching, I can bring the goods, I can deliver the you know, the poetry. And uh, and I I think teaching is important, but it is way, way overinflated as far as its importance to bring life change in, especially in Protestant Christianity. We need the body of Christ. Yeah, and and yeah, that's yeah. So if you're listening and you are trying to do this solo, uh, we get it, we get the temptation. Relationships are risky. It's hard to let people know, especially about the these areas of life that are that feel so shameful. Um, but you need some brothers, you need some sisters, you need people who know the truth about what's going on in the in the darkest times for you.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah. And those are really our mat carriers. I think of the the paralytic on the mat and you know, that's brought before Jesus. And he can't walk, so he's carried on a mat. Well, how did the mat get there? It wasn't, you know, like an Aladdin magic carpet. It was he was carried by four other men who were on the corners of this mat to bring him to Jesus. So he would have never gotten before Jesus if these guys didn't come alongside him and help him. And here's the thing, Josh, we're all on that mat at some point in our lives. Whether it's our own sexuality or our recovery or finances, whatever it might be, there is a time in life where you will find yourself on that mat. And who's gonna carry you? Who's gonna bring you before Jesus, so to speak, so that we can enter into his presence and his healing and that embodiment. And so I just think that what a beautiful picture of why community is so important, because they come or they come, you know, around you and alongside you in times in your life where you can't do it on your own. You can't do the thing on your own, and you need maybe a nudge from somebody else, a word of encouragement from somebody else, a literally, you know, driving me to a meeting or whatever it might be from somebody else, right? And so, and we never know when that's gonna be. We don't know what that's gonna look like, but yeah, so mat carriers.
SPEAKER_00:That's really good. I think it's a fitting place to end and talk about the intersection between manhood and recovery, because I don't think if you were to ask most men listening or even women listening, like, give us a good impression of a man, like what you know, give us a picture of a man. I don't think most of them would think, well, remember that guy on the mat? Like, that's a good picture of manhood.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:But he was a man among men, and his friends carried him on the mat. And if there's part of him that was saying, like, oh no, no, no, you know, it's look, obviously Jesus is busy, it's crowded, like, don't whatever. They're like, Nope, nope, because you're worth it. We see something in you, we want your full health to be restored. And you got to imagine, like, how did he walk up out of there? And what was his sense of his participation in that community, his gratitude for those people that brought him, and now his ability to participate in a new way in the realm of of being a man among men. And so, what's recovery for? It's not to make us men, but it is to to grow us and it is to help us become more fully the men we're designed to be, so that we can more fully participate in the life of the church, the life of our home, life of our workplace, our neighborhood, without shame, without fear, without what whatever else keeps us from living that out. That's beautiful, man. I aspire to be the man on the on the mat, or let yourself be the man on the mat where you're the man on the mat.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, right. He was he was no less uh of a man to be before Jesus uh than anyone who could walk, right? And so what what beauty, what beauty there. Man, what a what a great conversation. Thanks, Josh. Uh well, hey friends. Uh, I want to just mention that our sacred by design retreat for women is coming up in November. And you can find out more about that if you click the link in the show notes. But Josh, I'm just wondering if you would just kind of give us one final word, even though that kind of felt like a final word. Would you just give us a final word and pray us out?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Well, just to piggyback that, like, so if we haven't scared off all the women because we talk so much about manhood, like, brothers, like find a woman in your life who needs some restoration and just let her know. Take that risk for her. Bring the good gift of you. Let her know you heard this podcast and that you want to point her towards some women that can pour into her. Final word, brothers, um, you got nothing to prove. You got nothing to prove to any other man. You have a father in heaven who made you to be a man, to be his son, to be a brother to other brothers. Uh, you don't have to prove it to us, you don't have to prove it to anybody else. Um, but, but follow him into this deeper work of recovery. And if you're on that journey, stay on that journey. It is worth it. You are worth it. And your father, who loves you so much, uh, wants you to keep growing and healing and learning to love like he does. So, Jesus, would you make that so in our lives? My life and Aaron's uh right at the front. Because we too need it, Lord. We want to reflect you in our manhood. Help us, Lord. We pray it in Jesus' name. Amen.
SPEAKER_01:Amen. And until next time, keep pressing into the truth, keep walking in grace, and keep becoming whole.
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