Becoming Whole
Relationships and sexuality are areas of life that can be beautiful or confusing, life-giving, or painful. Becoming Whole is a conversational podcast for men, women, and families seeking to draw nearer to Jesus as they navigate topics like sexual integrity, relational healing, spiritual health, and so much more.
Becoming Whole
Tough Questions for Marriage
What if the questions we ask about sex are too small? We take on role-play, masturbating while thinking about a spouse, and the habits modern culture treats as normal—and then we lay out a bigger, braver vision for intimacy that actually heals.
We start with the allure of role-play. Playfulness and communication are good, but pretending to be someone else can fracture the connection by elevating a mask over the person you vowed to love.
From there, we tackle solo sex “about” your spouse. It feels faithful, but fantasy edits reality and guarantees availability in ways a real spouse cannot. Training our bodies on images—yes, even of a spouse—forms us toward self-directed pleasure rather than mutual self-gift.
Throughout, we return to the telos of sex in the Christian story: union, openness to life, and joy woven together by self-giving love. Bodies speak a vow—all of me for all of you—and that vow matures as we’re known more deeply over time. The surprising payoff? Pleasure can grow richer when performance gives way to presence. If you’ve used role-play or fantasy, this is not a verdict; it’s an invitation to something fuller, kinder, and more durable.
If this resonates, share the episode with a friend, subscribe for more thoughtful conversations on sexuality and wholeness, and leave a review with the one question you want us to tackle next.
Resources mentioned in this Episode:
- Heart of Dating Podcast: Heart of Dating Podcast Featuring Host Kait Warman | Heart of Dating
Free Resources to help you on your journey to Becoming Whole:
- Email us questions! info@regenerationministries.org
👉Men's Overcoming Lust & Temptation Devotional
👉Women 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Women overcoming unwanted sexual Behavior)
👉Compass 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Wives who are or have been impacted by partner betrayal)
All right, friends, it's time for some tough questions for marriage sexuality. I'm James Craig. I'm one of the coaches here at Regen and director of projects. I'm here with Josh Glazer, our executive director. And I don't know if you all know this, but in the show notes, there's an email. And if there's not usually there will be in this episode, there's an email that you can reach out to to send us in your questions. So we actually have kind of a suite of listener questions, tough questions around marriage. Josh, can I just start by reading them out and we'll dive right into them?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, too.
SPEAKER_00:All right. So uh I'm gonna share them all at once and we're just gonna we're gonna talk about these. I want to encourage you, if you're not married, um that's okay. These are some things you're probably wondering about that we're gonna be pondering and and trying to, you know, pull out a deep Christian theology, the answers to. But question number one, is role playing in marriage okay? Question number two, is it okay to masturbate to thoughts of my spouse? And then question three is kind of going further with that question too. But my wife says it's okay as long as I'm thinking about her, or my wife has given me permission because I'm if I'm thinking about her, this this might keep she said it might help keep me faithful. Um so on and so forth. So those are our tough questions, Josh. I think I think we've got got it in for us uh today. These are our tough questions. And so um, as we get into these listeners, just want to encourage you, um, just reflect with the Lord, like reason with him, pray into these with him. These are not things that scripture super clearly definitively addresses with a single proof text. Okay. So we're gonna do some deeper theology based in scripture still, based in 2,000 years of church teaching. But this is not like John 538 says role playing's not okay in marriage. This is not how the Bible is designed, although it does answer a lot of our deep questions. So, Josh, how do you how do you begin thinking about these questions? Is role-playing okay and is it okay to masturbate thoughts of my spouse?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I uh so let me let's just start for anybody listening who's like, what's what do you mean role playing? What does that mean? I think the listener's probably getting after the idea of role-playing a sexual scene with their spouse, which has become kind of a a popularise thing. I mean, even there a sitcom that I've I've seen uh the two of the main characters who were dating or married would often role-play a specific scene. They'd kind of it was a scene out of a movie that they both liked, and they'd or I guess the husband liked, and they'd they'd role-play this scene in their in their in their sexual relationship, or role-play that those were the they thus those are the people they were. Um so here's what I here's what I like. I like I like the playfulness. I like that the husband and wife in the situation, um, if the husband and wife in the situation are talking about their sexual life and the things that they like, the things that they appreciate about the other. Uh I like that they're that they're communicating about this. A lot of couples don't. And so there's something healthy and positive about that. Um something healthy, uh potentially healthy about the playfulness between them, and that they that sex isn't just all serious business, um, but that they can be, they can delight together. Where where I get concerned about the role play idea is that um they're pretending to be other people or other characters. And from our vantage point, that doesn't work well for their relational connectedness in general, and it won't work well on a on a kind of Christian ethical perspective because sex is designed by God to be an expression of love for a specific spouse or between specific spouses. And so if you're pretending to be somebody else, I just kind of wonder what that does to your own perspective in in relation to like who are you loving? Who are you with? And what does that communicate to your spouse about where your joy comes from and where your love is directed? Uh, are they in themselves not enough? Uh so that's where my brain goes initially. What what about you? What what how does that strike you?
SPEAKER_00:I'm taken right away to something I listened to recently. Uh, my wife sent me an episode from a Christian podcast called The Heart of Dating. Uh, you heard of that, Josh? You heard of the heart of dating? Okay. I haven't heard too much about it. I believe the woman is now married, actually, because she was on with her husband. But I think for years she was trying to figure out dating in our culture. So I imagine she has a lot of good stuff. And we'll send a we'll put a link to them in the show notes if you want to check out this episode. But the husband said at one point during the episode that our types, and what I mean by types, like what we're sexually attracted to, is always rooted in our brokenness. I was like, that's a strong statement. And maybe we need to temper it a little bit and say it's often or usually, but this idea of like we kind of are imprinted by early sexual experiences, and we're often drawn back to things that we might have sexualized over the years. And so I immediately think about that. I'm like, what is it in role-playing? What is it in acting out a scene from a favorite movie or certain types of characters or or jobs or whatever? What is it about role-playing into those things that is arousing? And is there something actually rooted in your story, in my story, in whoever's feeling these desires, is there something rooted in our story that actually set us up, kind of imprinted a sexual archetype onto us? I know I've walked with guys, Josh, that um certain things that might not seem very traumatic, but memories that we keep going back to in certain scenarios, we keep coming back to them because they're still so aroused by these things that are not sexual in nature. So for example, if someone's really attracted or aroused by the idea of, you know, uh service people helping save them, right? Is it possible there's actually like a root back further back in? And I know for the guy that I'm thinking of, there is a memory that again didn't seem like particular nothing abusive or particular happened, but for some reason, the overwhelming nature of the memory has has left them with that kind of imprint. And so I I'm kind of first drawn to that idea of story. Like, where is where is this in your story? And I believe like a lot of sex therapists, perhaps they're well-meaning, and maybe even they they identify as Christian, they'll they'll encourage people to go back to like, well, what you know, what attracts you in and and let's go back to those kind of initial things. But as I as I heard in the Heart of Dating podcast, that's not actually necessarily rooted in just kind of a benign, you know, I'm just attracted. It's actually often rooted in story, like things that have happened to us, things that we've done or have latched onto.
SPEAKER_01:I love the direction you're taking that because it because just beyond the kind of like the morality of the question, you're getting into like real care for one another's hearts. Like, what's happening in your heart that you want to play this out in this in this relationship, this scene, this character, um, this sexual excitement? What's what's what's coming up in your story that that that part of there's something in your heart that's untended? And and wouldn't it be more fruitful? Can we get into that so we can tend to one another in a way that's loving and caring and healing and restorative rather than just perpetuating it through this this role play? I mean, I think you know that some of what you're digging into is is so much stuff that we've that we've benefited from Jay Stringer's work around recognizing that our fantasies connect to some wound in our past. Our fantasies of preference, our our uh sexual arousal template can be connected to some wounds in our past. And so the invitation to be curious about that, why, why is that stirring up for me? And I found that so helpful in so many areas of my own life, like even outside of sexual fantasy, like why am I drawn today to want to watch this type of movie? I'm not talking about like a sexually erotic movie, even, but like, why why an action movie today where the the hero is is so powerful? Well, often if I look at my day or my week or my experience, myself, I'm feeling really disempowered today, actually. I'm feeling really ineffective. And the fact that um Ethan Hunt in in Mission Impossible can can accomplish the impossible, like man, that that appeals to something inside of me. And so not that there's anything necessarily wrong with watching that movie, but what if my what if the needs of my heart continue to go untended? And can my marriage and my most intimate relationships be a space where that part of me is tended to as opposed to glossed over or diverted into some sexual fantasy or story?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, uh we just had our uh annual weekend retreat, it is incredible. And and um Blake on our staff. Do you remember this quote, Josh? I'm not gonna be able to get it right. Something about to the extent that we've processed through our story, we're gonna be impacted by it. Do you remember that quote?
SPEAKER_01:I was talking about like like if we can until we can clearly articulate our story, or only to the extent that we can that we can truthfully tell our story. Truthfully tell, let's go. Yeah. So we need to truly tell our story in order to be truly healed. And I think I think there's so much truth in that. Yeah. He led us through a really powerful exercise. It was great. Shameless plug for the awakened retreat next year. Yeah, if you're a woman listening to this, shameless plug for our sacred by design retreat that's coming up very, very soon. We'll have more information to say about that later.
SPEAKER_00:But yeah, a great place for receiving some of the care that that we so so need and are so looking for. And so I want to go back though to what you were originally saying, Josh, that there's something though that's happening when when we're going through the lens of role play where we might actually be kind of missing our spouse. Like so it brings me to this deeper question, and and this we'll probably weave in through the episode. But what is sex really for in marriage? Because if sex is about maximizing my pleasure, if sex is just for fun, just for fun. I'm not saying it shouldn't be fun, but if it's just for fun, then why wouldn't I roleplay if that's the way why why wouldn't I try to get my spouse to roleplay if that's the type of fantasy that most arouses me? So what is sex really for? Like how why why are we both kind of uh not you know pro this idea of roleplay?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah, that's a really important question. And um, I think you know, post uh the widespread acceptance of contraception in our culture, uh sex has has largely become known as just a uh an avenue for pleasure. And um prior to that, I think people would at least acknowledge, like, well, sex is for procreation, because it just naturally that's the direction it goes. And so, and then historically Christianity would also add to that that sex is unitive, that this is this is a man and a woman, uh hopefully husband and wife becoming one flesh with another in a very physical, literal way. Their bodies are joining together. As Dr. Todd White wrote in his book, Mirosexuality, there's only one organ in the human person that doesn't operate by itself apart from another, and that's the sexual organ for men and for women. Uh Christopher West puts it this way, they don't even make sense. Like you can't look at the a male genitalia or female genitalia and understand what it means without the other. And these all point to the fact that that sex is designed to be unitive. So if I were to summarize all of that, procreative, unitive, pleasure or joy, underneath all of that, or uh maybe a heading over all that, I would say is that um men and women are designed in God's image and likeness. And our sexuality, our sexual selves, our physical bodies, are designed to be an expression of self-giving love. All of me given for all of you, all of me given for your benefit, for your good. And so I think the uh that's in essence what we're doing when we when we marry another is we're saying, I'm giving you everything. I'm giving you my stuff, my time, the rest of my life, um, my future, my my hopes for my family. The old marriage vows would say, forsaking all others, which I think was such a beautiful expression of, I know there are lots of other possibilities. There are lots of other avenues how I could spend the rest of my life. I forsake it all for you because I see in you that much value, that much worth. I give you all of me, I'm bringing all of me for your good. And if the marriage bed is just an extension of that, if sex is designed to be an extension of that, then the husband and wife come, they unclothe themselves, and that's just this beautiful expression of I give all of me, I'm here, all of me. I'm not holding anything back. I give all of me for you, for your good. And that's a different message than you know, can you pretend to be, you know, this person in this movie, and I'll pretend to be this person in this movie, so that we can kind of have a thrill. There's there's something very different about those two. And I'd suggest that the former, all of me given for you, for your good, is a much more dignifying, um, honoring way to approach the marriage bed than than than role-playing.
SPEAKER_00:I'm reminded as you're speaking, Josh, um, some deep truths, by the way. I think we swim in it so much we can forget like these are these are beautiful truths in the Christian faith, but yeah, um, very old in scripture is this idea of yada. Uh, our listeners might have heard us talk about this before. Ya d a, the Hebrew word to know, is the word that is used to include sex, but beyond sex as well. And so there's this deep sense in the Hebrew worldview, the Christian worldview, Jesus' worldview, that sex is about truly knowing and being known. And that actually really sticks out to me too. I'm thinking of Kurt Thompson, Josh. He talks a lot in his books about he's a Christian psychiatrist and he just talks a lot about the power of being known in the in the place of weakness and darkness. And we need God's light. We need love in all of those places. And so one of the challenges or issues that we would take with with this idea of role-playing is we're forsaking some of that. We're actually, let me put it positively, or uh let me put it another way, we're missing some of the possibility of being known. We're missing out on some of if I'm dressed up a certain way or asking my wife to pretend I'm I'm some sort of uh you know, action hero or whatever, I'm missing out on actually being known in those vulnerable places. And this is just such a paradigm shift, Josh. Even as I'm saying it, I'm like, this is so counter to our pornographied, uh, sexual revolutionified worldview that we have in 2025. Like this idea that actually we're meant to be known in these places instead of running, using sex to run from being known. I imagine that's counter from any of our listeners, including myself.
SPEAKER_01:That's beautiful. I love that. I love I love bringing you da in here. And I it makes me think. So I'm I'm 53, uh soon to be 54 this year, later this year. And uh my wife and I are we're getting older. You know, we're not the the young pups we once were. And uh, and what you're framing up there, what we're trying to talk about here, is really it continues the invitation for intimacy and for knowing one another and giving ourselves to one another continues. It doesn't diminish with age, it actually just extends. Like, you know, the wrinkles on my face weren't there when we got married, but my wife recognizes them, and she probably even knows some of the hardship that I've walked through that that might have caused some of those wrinkles. And I for her, and so the the knowing and our laying down our lives for the good of the other, rather than looking at her, her looking at me like, how much pleasure can you give me? If if our goal in sex is how much pleasure can you give me, then it leads to this place of as we get older, well, then that's just diminished, uh, potentially. But ironically, I think I think that's maybe some of the mess of the culture. Ironically, uh, I think the opposite is true. And this is crazy to say, but I think the the couples who walk together and lay down their lives for each other and know each other this way, over time, and sex isn't always easy, but over time, the intimacy becomes sweeter in a way and deeper in a way. Um I can testify, I think that there are ways faithful marriage to one woman for so long does change my perspective on level of temptation. Because that there's part of me that's like, nah, nobody else can give me what my wife can give me, because we're the she's the only one who's lived through uh all that we've lived through together. Nobody can be that for me. And that only comes through a perspective of all of me given for you, all of you given for me, and that that ya, you know, we're we know each other. Um that old phrase, like you know, you can't make old friends. Uh same thing's true in marriage. You you can't you you you can't marry someone today you've been married to for 40 years, you know. Um I I long for more of that. Hey, one of the things I I that does strike me, I don't want to uh I don't want to gloss for what I just said, but I also want to add that the other reality, I think, maybe not in all cases, but in many cases, and it's worth mentioning that when when one spouse is acting asking the other to role-play something, it's it's often not a mutual thing. Uh in our experience, I think often it's one spouse saying, Can you do this for me?
SPEAKER_00:And similar to when uh when a husband or or a wife says, Hey, can we watch pornography together? Yeah. It's actually ultimately for that person's, you know, selfish sexual gratification.
SPEAKER_01:Right. And often role-playing itself is a can you role-play this sexual scene that I've watched. And so it further kind of, I think, has the has a capacity to uh to to feel on some level degrading for one spouse. And ultimately, if it's degrading for one spouse, it's degrading for both. But um where you're asking someone to pretend to be someone else rather than themselves. It's not just a matter of you acting something as someone different. You're also asking them to be someone different. And the message there is can be really, really degrading. Like you're not enough. I don't want you to be you right now. I want you to be someone else. Um, however, you however playful you kind of doctor that up, I think at the end of the day, uh, I don't know that that serves a couple well. And I think it can be ultimately degrading.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it ultimately doesn't even get after if we're dealing with our own shame. Like, I don't really want to be known. I don't feel that hot or attractive if I'm really known by this person who's known my biggest weaknesses for 20 years or however long. Yeah. So there's an element of like, is there an invitation? There's actually an invitation. Is there a place of shame where I'm struggling to be known? And by the way, if you're struggling with this and you're, let's just say you're like, oh, I see where they're coming from. I can see how this might be missing the boat. Like, this is an invitation of love as well. Yeah. If you've been struggling, this is an invitation of love. Where are you actually struggling to receive love in yourself? Where are you struggling to love your spouse? Because friends, we all struggle to love. That's why we need a savior. If any of us loves perfectly, um that means I think we've probably arrived at at perfection because everything boils down to that self-giving love. Uh, at least that's how it looks to me in the New Testament.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, James, that's good. And I I appreciate you bringing that too, because we we don't want you, if you're listening, you're like, well, oh man, my my husband and I, or my wife and I, we've actually been role-playing and it's been a real source of fun for us, or you know, we've maybe we've enjoyed it, or maybe I've asked my spouse to do this, and I'm not sure how much they enjoy it. Where this is an invitation for you to grow closer to each other, like talk through this together, maybe listen to this podcast together and and and take a look with the Lord. You know, Lord, is do you have something more for us? Are we missing something? Um, that we and we could lay this down to know each other better. This is not a uh a judgy statement. This is, I mean, I hope you hear this there's real hope in this for something even deeper that meets some some needs that God has woven into this that that you're meant to meet here.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. So, in a similar vein, let's let's talk more in depth about this idea of masturbating about one's spouse. How do you immediately want to answer that, Josh? Even if let's just say it's a husband asking this and the wife's like, you can do this because I want you to be faithful and at least you're thinking about me. Like, how would you respond if you're in the coaching session with that husband?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, again, let me start with some positives. I I appreciate the heart to be faithful. I appreciate the heart not to have eyes for someone else, not to lust after someone else outside of your marriage. I think that that can be a positive step for people in the journey to begin recognizing, okay, look, I'm out of control. Um, maybe this is one step I can take. But I I I do have some concerns about it if it's if the view is like this is an acceptable place to land. Uh, and I'm and I'm also not just to be clear, I'm not prescribing that as a step. I'm just saying, you know, if you're if you see that as a step, if it's been prescribed for you, you know, I I can see the the good heart behind that. Uh, but I think in some ways, back to the thing we were just talking about, like um in in a similar way to if we're asking a spouse to dress up or act like somebody that they're not, to masturbate to the thought of one's wife, for example, um, is not the same as being with one's wife. Because our thoughts are, I mean, our brains are really powerful, and our capacity to to hold the scene, to direct the scene, to rewind the scene, to play the scene, to adjust or adapt how a a wife or a husband would respond, uh, even even to conceive of the fact or the idea that a that a husband or wife is available right now for the sexual interaction when in fact they are not. They're not in the room, they're not available, uh, they're sick, they're they're dealing with something on their own.
SPEAKER_00:They're pregnant, they're pregnant, they're they're actually that this is a very real example, they're hurting in their genitals because they need they need a rest. And oh my gosh, what am I gonna do now if I don't, you know, quote, finish or have an orgasm. But there can be pain to fidelity and to recognizing like this is a this is a high call. This is a high call to say my sexual release, my sexual engagement, my sexual pleasure is all in the context of this unitive relationship. It's all for my spouse to some degree. It's all um, and as Josh was arguing earlier, you might even look into some of the arguments of it should at least be open to some degree to procreation to new life. I know that many of our, you know, Protestant listeners, too, we're we're two of which Josh and I are both um, you know, I know you don't love that word Protestant, actually, Josh, but but to those who don't like have never given it deep thought the way maybe Roman Catholics have, is it possible that actually our sexuality isn't always meant to be this self-giving thing? And so I would I would ask that to frame up like, is it okay to masturbate the thoughts of my spouse? Well, are you actually recognizing the telos, the telos, the the purpose, the end goal? That's the the Greek word telos. Um the end goal of my sexuality is what? If it is my own pleasure, if it is, you know, getting pleasure so that I don't act unfaithful, are we actually falling short of that that incredible beautiful goal? You could probably say it so much better. So fill in the fill in the gaps there, Josh.
SPEAKER_01:No, it's really good. I mean, let's let's go back to the example of the spouse who there's something physical going on, so sex is not an option right now or it's painful, or um, let's say there's a husband wife in recovery from infidelity and the and one of the spouses is just not does not trust the other. Um I think there's an opportunity here. If we're if our if the overarching aim of sex is to be a subcategory of self-giving love for the sake of the other, then can I lay down my sexual desire in this moment to be with you where you are? So, you know, you're you don't trust me right now, you don't have sex. Well, okay. Then I won't either. Um, you're it's it's painful for you right now. Um well, guess what? It you know, like I can then I can deal with some pain of saying no to my sexual desire. Yeah, you're and you're not gonna explode, you're not gonna die.
SPEAKER_00:You're not gonna die.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I know there are some crazy, like, you know, yeah, you need to have sex. Uh it's uh it's just healthy. Like to repress that is unhealthy. Like, no, no. I mean to repress, sure. To abstain, to walk through seasons of like, oh, I wish I could have sex and it I I feel desirous and I'm saying no, um, yeah, you're not gonna die. You might you might have a hard time falling asleep. You might have a hard time with your thoughts. Yeah, join join the club, like a lot. Like we um, we've been there. Yeah. So in the same way, if I come to the marriage bed, and if let's just make it more generic, if a husband and wife come to the marriage bed and they're both amorous and they're and they're ready and they desire each other and they they're in a good space and loving each other, and they give their bodies one to another in that sexual embrace. Well, in a moment where one of those spouses is not able to enter into that sexual embrace for location or sickness or whatever else, can can the same statement be true? Okay. I can give my body to you in the sexual embrace, and I can give my body to you in abstaining from the sexual embrace. I am yours. I forsake all others, including all fantasies for you. I want to be in this with you.
SPEAKER_00:And one of the things Josh is saying there is it is a fantasy. When we're imagining our spouse in a sexual way, there is a fantasy element because why how can I say that with confidence? Because it's not the person, the living, breathing person in front of me. It's the image of that person. It's one way I can think of it is you know, God's really big against like worshiping an image instead of the true God. Now, this is a little bit different than what Catholic and Eastern Orthodox people are trying to do with images or trying to look through them as kind of an eye, they literally call it an icon to the true God. But it can't quite work the same way in masturbation and fantasy because we're we're not um one, it's not meant to be an act of worshiping our spouse, which is kind of what it is, right? It's like worshiping my own pleasure, worshiping my spouse's attractiveness or whatever, but it's actually not seeing the real person. It's not loving the image bearer, it's loving kind of more the image, the way that this image can arouse me. And by the way, your spouse in your fantasy might be willing to do things or whatever that your spouse in reality is not willing or able to do. And so that's another way it kind of goes back to that whole how has our brain been trained? If it's been trained through pornography, am I have I learned that this is the way to get the pleasure that that I feel like I need?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, right.
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, like the we're physical creatures, which means that we have we are in one location at one time. And this is the first time I ran into this was years and years ago. Um, this this really godly Christian man I knew talked about how his wife was okay with him masturbating when he was on business trips, uh, as long as he was thinking about her, and it was it was a way for him to remain faithful. And uh, so the the the two thoughts about that, one is well, but your wife is not with you. And so, in order for you to really be loving your wife, is to acknowledge like your wife, the thought of your wife is with you, but she's not. Like, um, and then the second to follow that up, and this uh I'm glad you bring up just kind of how we train ourselves on porn or train ourselves on fantasy, like it's actually valuable to grow in faithfulness, to grow in sexual integrity, to practice the reality that that your spouse, assuming you have one, is just one person in one location with limitations. That is a part of how we grow in sexual faithfulness. We subject ourselves to the reality that our spouse is who he or she is, not someone else, not a fiction in our in our minds, not all that we wish in every moment. Uh and I think over the long haul, that enables us to more and more freely say, yeah, this is my body given for you, not for my imagining or my desire of who or where you might be, but for you yourself.
SPEAKER_00:Well, and for this well, can I just say for the single listeners, some some of you might be in the mindset of maybe you're dating, maybe you're engaged, maybe you were married at one point, but it's worth mentioning that. Sex is not available on demand when you're in marriage. Right. Um the um rude awakenings include things like uh women's if I'm speaking to men right now in particular, women's arousal takes more time to build up. Men's arousal can happen almost instantaneously. That's very different than what pornography seems to show. Right, right. And so on and so forth. So if you're single and you're like, man, if I could just get married and have sex as often as I masturbate, that really might not be on the table, right? For all the reasons we said and ones we're not even thinking of. Can you love the spouse in front of you? And again, this is invitational. This is, I'm looking, I can look at myself basically in the metaphorical mirror through Zoom. Like, can I grow in that agape love? Because I wouldn't say probably any of us, again, that's like this gradient, like over time, God, make me that self-giving kind of man. Make me the kind of man, by the way, and I love getting, I got this from Christopher West, Josh. Make me the kind of man who can abstain, who can fast is the language he uses. He's like, hey, he's a Catholic, and so he's like, if you if you don't want to have kids, uh, you can be pretty confident you're not gonna have kids in certain windows. That's why they call it family planning. But even in those windows, and also when you're unable to have sex, whether it's because you're you're not in a place to have a baby or other other elements, can you fast? Can you actually take take a break instead of you know, kind of what he would call um uh using contraception as a way to like cut off our uh what's it called, like our livelihood or like our um creative creative power, so to speak, co-creative power with God. Can you fast instead? Can you abstain instead? Because that's actually, if you're not married yet, that's going to be required in marriage more often than you might realize. I think I heard you say recently, Josh, that like you're talking to someone and you're like, I don't know if he realizes that I'm probably having a lot less sex than he is, and he's not a married man and he's trying to get it together and follow Jesus, but like it really might not be as often. And yet, you know, Paul does talk about this idea. Don't go away permanently from your spouse. If you are going to take sexual breaks and they're kind of intentional and longer form, do it in prayer and other forms of fasting. Like, if there's reasons your marriage is having trouble, there actually could be an invitation to the spiritual discipline and the power that comes with literally fasting and praying, Lord, restore us, bring us new life. I know my wife and I have tried this in part in response to some of the betrayal she's experienced from me. Like, what does it mean for us to take a break, fast, and pray so that we're seeing God empty us out of our own striving and fill us with his actual power, his his spiritual food.
SPEAKER_01:That's beautiful. I love it. Yeah, and I and I don't know where I just want to say this. I I think in some ways we're pointing to an ideal. And I I recognize that. Uh and I think some people would might might have some contention with with it, what we're saying because of that. Um, you know, I mean, even the even the question itself, isn't it better that I fantasize about my spouse than that I act out with somebody else? But but I also so so I I I do want listeners to hear it invitationally and aspirationally, like this is worth aiming for, worth seeking the Lord about, worth seeking to grow in. And where you falter along the way, God's grace is there for you, and He's He He's willing to walk with you every step of the way. And at the same time, like I I also don't want to pull down the ideal. Like there we're created to love as God loves. And God, if we're followers of Jesus, we have God's spirit in us. And so I think there's sometimes we can cut ourselves short of that aspirational vision just because it's difficult. But I I really I would say to to listeners, like, there's there is real good here. And and I'm not I'm not saying any of this. I don't think either of us are saying any of this out of a place of like moral uh prudery or or legalism, as much as there's actually some real joy and some real good in this. And it works very differently than uh uh than than than fantasy and and masturbation do.
SPEAKER_00:So beautiful. Well, we gotta wrap up for today. Josh, I want to ask you to pray in just a moment, but I I just want to share this last word. I said the Greek word earlier of telos, right? End goal or purpose. It's similar. It's actually telos is the root for telios, which is what Jesus says in the Sermon on the Mount be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect. Another way to translate telios is to be mature or to be whole. Becoming whole, baby. Uh this is the invitation. This is the invitation. We're becoming whole. This is not a shame-based, uh, you know, that's not the heart behind this podcast, whether you struggle or don't struggle in these particular ways, is to recognize that Jesus actually wants more for us. He wants more for us than for us to medicate our places of immaturity that we don't know how to deal with, with masturbation, or to hide behind the costume and the role-playing. He actually wants us, all of us, to be who we are made to be. So that's the invitation, friends. Uh, Josh and I are on that same journey. That's why this is not we became whole podcasts, this is becoming whole podcasts. So, Josh, could you pray for our listeners?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Jesus, uh, thank you that you came with grace and truth. And thank you that you are the great bridegroom who gave yourself completely for the sake of your bride. Thank you, Lord, for the way that you poured your life out, even through pain and suffering and death for our sake. Lord, help us to grow in that kind of love for one another and for those of us who are married. Help us to grow in that kind of love for our spouses. And where we falter and fail and struggle along the way, Lord, we look back to you and receive anew from you your love for us, your grace for us, your help along the way. Thank you, Lord Jesus. We pray in your name. Amen.
SPEAKER_00:Amen.
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