Becoming Whole
Relationships and sexuality are areas of life that can be beautiful or confusing, life-giving, or painful. Becoming Whole is a conversational podcast for men, women, and families seeking to draw nearer to Jesus as they navigate topics like sexual integrity, relational healing, spiritual health, and so much more.
Becoming Whole
Establishing Healthy Check-Ins
Safety isn’t a feeling you can force, and “good” isn’t a real update. We sit down with coach and Hope Redefined founder Lyschel Burkett to map out a better way for couples to reconnect after betrayal: structured, mutual check-ins that trade control for connection and shame for safety. If you’ve tried to talk and ended up in a spiral, this conversation gives you words, rails, and hope.
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Resources from today's episode:
Free Resources to help you on your journey to Becoming Whole:
- Email us questions! info@regenerationministries.org
👉Men's Overcoming Lust & Temptation Devotional
👉Women 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Women overcoming unwanted sexual Behavior)
👉Compass 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Wives who are or have been impacted by partner betrayal)
Hey everyone, welcome back to the Becoming Whole podcast. I'm your host today, Aaron Taggart, and today we're stepping into one of the most sacred and often misunderstood spaces in the recovery journey. What does it really look like for a husband and wife to check in with one another in a way that builds safety and not more shame, that fosters connection and not control. For so many couples walking through betrayal or disclosure, these check-ins can either become lifelines or landlines. And learning the difference can make all the difference. And that's why I'm so excited to have Lachelle Briquette with us today. She's also one of the voices on the Hope for Wives podcast. Lachelle's a certified AppSatz coach and one of the most compassionate, grounded, and wise voices I've met in this space. I first connected with Lachelle through the AppSatz BTRL training, that's betrayal trauma for religious leaders, and immediately knew she was someone we needed to bring on this show. She brings not just expertise, but empathy and understanding that healing isn't about quick fixes, it's about rebuilding trust with truth and grace.
SPEAKER_00:Thanks, Aaron. That is quite the intro. I really appreciate it. I really hope we don't disappoint. You know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, no, but a lot of no pressure.
SPEAKER_00:That's right. That's right.
SPEAKER_04:I've really appreciated her sense of humor, which can be so great and uh in an area that feels heavy oftentimes. So um sure. Yeah. Uh all right, Lachelle, would you um not not all of our listeners would be familiar with you um and some of the work that you do? Would you just take a few minutes to kind of share uh with them what you know who you are and and what you do?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I would love to. So as you mentioned in my introduction, I'm the founder and the executive director of a ministry called Hope Redefined. Uh, it was founded in 2018. And to be honest with you, the ministry was birthed out of my own story. And I gave the Lord my yes and I stepped into this with fear and trembling. Uh, there's absolutely nothing in this that I thought was a good idea. I thought this whole thing was a terrible idea, but God had other plans. And I'm thankful that I gave him my yes, even though I'm still learning every day. So, yeah, and so when um Hope Redefine was burst, I had already been supporting women in small groups through my church and even online doing Zoom groups before Zoom was even cool. And I was, I had done that for about five years and then felt the Lord prompting me to start something that was going to be uh definitely bigger than myself. And over the last seven and a half years, that is for sure what has happened. We now have the opportunity to support women most virtually through groups. We have coaches, we have a coaching team of nine. We also do, we have a private online community, and then we offer a retreat that we run twice a year called Redeemed Hope. And I would really probably call it a spiritual healing retreat for women navigating betrayal. So, and then in addition to that, I get to do the other fun things like the training that you mentioned that you got to participate in, Erin. We've recently just adjusted it and it's now it used to be under AppSat's umbrella, and we've now moved it under Hope Redefines umbrella, and it is called Shepherding Through Crisis. And we're super stoked because we think it's gonna give us an opportunity to just continue to teach and equip what we would refer to as first responders in the faith community, how to walk with marriages that have been impacted by infidelity and betrayal. So yeah, lots of things, and then the podcast overwise.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, so good. And I know, yeah, you've been such a help, I know, to so many women and couples. And yeah, and we're gonna have in our show notes links to sort of all of those things so that those listening, you know, who who might need additional resources and help can also find that there. So thank you for sharing that about you and for, you know, just a little bit of your story.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, absolutely. Love it.
SPEAKER_04:All right. Well, let's go ahead and start by laying sort of a foundation and discussing why check-ins even matter in the recovery process. So I want to start with by just sort of like understanding the heart behind check-ins. So let's talk a little bit about what is a check-in and why are check-ins so vital for couples walking through recovery after betrayal or disclosure.
SPEAKER_00:I think my easiest answer or my most relatable answer to this question is personal testimony. So I will tell you that in the early stages of recovery in my marriage, my husband started attending a group. And I was absolutely convinced that I was gonna be the best cheerleader in the whole entire world for him as he was heading into group. Thought that I was super confident, gonna be just fine with this, like he's gonna do great. And then as time progressed, uh, he actually ended up slipping, probably about four months after he had started group. And that I will tell you just from a personal perspective, that is when betrayal set in for me. The first discovery didn't necessarily feel that way because he was very upfront about it. Like, hey, I'm struggling with this. I want to go to this group and get help. I was really proud of him. Like, yes, let's go do this. You shouldn't. And also to help listeners know, his primary at the time was online pornography. So it was like, great, go get some help for that. But when the the slip came, that's when I felt like that was betrayal because I thought we had a mutual agreement at that point. Like, you're not doing that thing anymore because now you're in group. With that betrayal, a lot of things started to surface for me that I didn't have language for then that I have now. And a lot of that had to do with the fear of the unknown and being completely out of control. Um, that isn't that by nature, I grew up in a bit of a traumatic home environment. So I learned that control was my secret weapon in everything and all things. And so I kept trying to figure out what does control look like now that I've been betrayed in this marriage. So I say all that to lay the groundwork that so my husband starts going to group, comes home, and I would ask the age-old question, so how is group? And he'd say, Good. And then I would say, Oh, what did you guys talk about? And he would say, Oh, I can't tell you, that's confidential. And then my blood would begin to boil immediately because I am like, What the heck? You just took an entire evening out of the house to go do this thing. Like, I don't understand how there's nothing to tell me, right? And I I have no doubt that there are wives right now laughing laughing at the answer of good because that drives me bananas. But that was the answer. And what I know now that I didn't know then was I wasn't actually asking that question to know about the people in the group and what those guys were doing. I was asking the question because I longed to know what was going on inside of him. And there was so much that felt like it was very closed off, and I didn't understand it. I mean, I didn't even really understand at that point in time why you would have chosen porn to begin with. I thought we were in a great happy marriage, that our sex life was fine, like all the things. So, what I was doing in those questions was I was trying to get information about him. I wanted to discover more of him. Did I handle that well with great maturity? No. Instead, I responded with why do you hide from me? Why do you keep everything so secret? This is crazy, you're not actually doing it. I would move into panic and fear. Suddenly, my hypervigilance started to convince me he wasn't even going to group because he would never share anything. And so when the tool of a couple's check-in came to us, that was such a gift for me to feel like I had permission to ask questions and to and to be able to see more of his heart as he was in recovery, but also as I was trying to heal.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Yeah. So it sounds like it. It kind of gave you some language, yeah, to be able to ask, you know, different questions or to really engage his heart and for him to probably have a little more clarity on you know how like how to share or what to share. So, you know, the check-ins can often be structured. We'll talk a little bit more about what some of those check-ins look like later, but it is such a I I think I could say it a beautiful thing because it does bring opportunity to engage in some of these hard places in a in a way that feels and and you know, you can share your experience a little, I don't know, safer or a little like that structure is kind of comforting because it's a it's a way to enter into that, sort of like a shepherding into something that we normally won't, you know, don't want to really touch.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Absolutely. And I think the structure is the word I think you keep is really important for us to have because we've navigated addiction and betrayal pre-kids and with kids. And as you probably I know you would know too, Aaron, with having kids, is like there's no time for us. Like, we're not gonna have this kind of conversation standing in the kitchen while I'm working on the mac and cheese, right? Like this is this is stuff that we need to be making eye contact with and really engaging with one another. And so not having a structure really does lead to it falling off and people not continuing to do this in an effort to grow in intimacy, emotional intimacy with each other.
SPEAKER_04:That's so good.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Um, LaCelle, how would you help couples distinguish between a check-in that builds safety versus one that maybe fuels anxiety or control?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, um distinguishing between those is I think the check-ins can get really murky. And I know we're gonna talk about some of those different tools that people have created and that couples oftentimes use in this space. Uh, check-ins are not in design to be one-sided. And I think that one-sided check-ins are where the anxiety and the control come from. And I and that's just important for us to know, even as for me to speak as a betrayed partner. Like, I for sure tried that tactic where I was like, I'm not sharing anything with you because I don't feel safe with you, but I want you to report into me. I need all this information. Now, was there purpose in that? Yes, I was hoping for information and I was terrified of being vulnerable with him. I was terrified of putting out anything that was going to potentially be used against me later. Or I was also really anxious about being emotional in front of him because what I was learning as we were navigating this was every time I was emotional, it shut him down. When my tears came out, it was done, over. And it was a disconnect. So understanding a little bit of the building blocks that come with this check-in process is really important in order to know are we doing this to build safety, either together with each other or individually, or is this about anxiety and control?
SPEAKER_04:What would you say? I'm just thinking, even right now, maybe a listener, you know, who is in that anxious space, you know, and maybe some fear, trepidation of entering into something like wants the information, doesn't want to be vulnerable. What would you speak to to that partner?
SPEAKER_01:Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00:So, what I would speak to her is that she's still entitled to information. It's not that she's not, and it's and the withholding may have great reason. Like if she doesn't feel safe in that relationship, there is a reason for that. And so part of this is I would say it's a it would be an opportunity for her to get curious about what's not feeling safe. Okay, he doesn't feel safe, he doesn't feel emotionally safe, he doesn't, and maybe she starts to discover patterns or behaviors either that are connected to him or even attached to her childhood. Like I know that I could say to you, I was so familiar with the men in my life, like adult parents, things that every time I would start to cry or get upset, they would shut it down and they would disconnect from me, right? They would walk away, a legit disconnect. And so there's also part of that that I'm scripting out how this engagement is going to go with him and really struggling to create space that he might show up slightly different. As he's learning more, I'm learning more, there could be space for grace there. The other thing is that I would advocate for her to consider requesting the check-ins in a different format, maybe. And I've had that, we've oftentimes I support couples as they go through disclosure. And that's one of the tools that we use post-disclosure, is we have them start doing check-ins via email. And the reason for that is not because we want to create disconnection, but part of it is because we're trying to slow both of them down in their processing and move them from a state of dysregulation to regulated in order for them to communicate and start that process of reconnecting with each other. Tell me how things are going. And then me, like if I'm the partner, then I have the opportunity then to respond again with questions that feel like I have worked really hard to figure them out. I was a really good BB gun questioner. Uh, if you are familiar with that, where it would just come, they would come out so fast you couldn't answer the first one because I already had three more behind it. So uh that type of structure and giving that, you know, a little bit of space really does help with that, hopefully building some safety for her and him.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah, I know um it just because it is just like such a complex, and there's so many new like nuances in this process. And yeah, and I know like that BB gun, like I know like a you know, a betraying partner would, you know, maybe feel sort of like in interrogated or, you know, and so again, there's that wall and that shut down. And so there's really this sort of posture and this heart that they've that both the husband and wife need to kind of come together with to be able to share and and to receive. Um what what would you speak to that posture? You know, I don't know if you name it or just like what yeah, how would you describe a healthy posture to enter into that space?
SPEAKER_00:Well, I think from a spiritual perspective, what we're really speaking to is humility and understanding that there isn't perfection going to be achieved here on earth, and it's not gonna happen in in our spouse either, from both sides. So humility and grace are probably the two things I would say have to be the clothes you put on to walk into a check-in. I think about let me think for a second, heart posture.
SPEAKER_04:As you're as you're thinking, can I just run? I just had this image as you're talking about like, you know, the the clo like the kind of cloaking ourselves sort of in in grace and humility. And I I got this image of like a hazmat suit. Like you wouldn't step into the a highly toxic, you know, like, and I'm not saying this is necessarily toxic, but there can be some of that, but just that imagery of wearing something in a way that's sort of protective, and also just like knowing that, hey, I I need this in order to enter into like this thing, right? So like this this hazmat suit, but not in a not in a negative way, but in a it's this protect, it's a protection. Like you literally can't can't, you know, deal with the stuff that you would deal with without a hazmat suit, right? So like I don't think you can really deal with this without grace and and humility. Uh and that doesn't mean other things don't creep into this or try to rear its head, but I think that heart posture of of grace and humility is a um, I think just a I think that's a beautiful picture of what this kind of takes, you know, to do well.
SPEAKER_00:It's interesting because in our one of our groups we do on boundaries, we use the hazmat suit as an example of boundaries.
SPEAKER_04:Really?
SPEAKER_00:So I'm curious, like I'm like, oh, that really is a great visual and picture because it is appropriate for us to still have our emotional boundaries, physical boundaries, et cetera, even in a check-in. So that's fun. Um the other thing I think so. We talk about grace and we talk about humility, and I do think there's there's space for curiosity.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Instead of judgment, like, right? Those are the opposites, curiosity versus judgment. And I think that is an opportunity for both sides. Like, I keep playing this like fictitious check-in process in my brain as we're talking about. And it's like I can see him getting anxious and nervous that he's not gonna say the right thing. Um, and so he picks up his default defense things that he does to try and keep himself, quote, safe, which oftentimes results in breaking connection with a person, right? I'm gonna, I'm gonna clam up or I'm gonna whatever, berate you for being too nosy and asking me too many questions. And you've got her who's I'm desperate to know this person who's sitting across the couch from me, but also I'm terrified that he's gonna give me more information that's gonna hurt. I just, I don't know if I feel so raw. I don't know if I'm ready to hear that he had a slick today or that there was a relapse or temptation, or like I just don't know if I can handle all that information. And so it's a bit of that grace and the curiosity for both of us to say, okay, the husband would be able to start to grow in that understanding, like she's just as scared about being here as I am. And it's a it's a mutual experience versus, but they're just they just look different.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I love I love that. I use the phrase all the time with clients about cultivating curiosity.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Because it's something that doesn't just happen. Uh, we we really have to I think learn how to do that. And a lot of times that comes from you know, maybe you know, working this out in groups or in coaching or with a a CSAT, but to be able to begin um yeah, to to kind of almost yeah, have it's almost a another way forward too, because then not only you know am I sharing, but I can be curious more uh uh you know for you know for my wife and for you know and be more empathetic and grow in empathy. So I think that cultivating curiosity also enables more empathy. And so I I totally see that on on both sides of curiosity around, you know, just being able to ask each other questions that aren't necessarily interrogative, but like, you know, trying to get at some of the heart things and maybe some parts of this each other's stories that are coming into play and and not either one maybe not even really realizing it. And I think curiosity can help kind of take those conversations into some of those places.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_04:Let's talk a little bit more about safety, truth, and emotional regulation. Because so often uh I've heard from couples that the conversations either go really well or they crash and burn. And you've kind of you know noted some of that. So let's talk about some of this middle ground and how to hold safety and truth together. So, how can a betrayed spouse express pain or ask for reassurance without feeling like they're too much?
SPEAKER_00:Oh man, that's a that's got layers, Aaron.
SPEAKER_04:Um it is a little layered. You can roll up your sleeves if you need to.
SPEAKER_00:Uh I know. Well, because my my coach brain came on and my betrayal trauma coach brain came in, and I was like, tell me what's happening in that environment that makes you feel like you're too much. Right? Because that's probably the place to start, which could be that the way he responds to her pain when she shares pain, if his go-to is disconnection or blaming her for feet, her all of that stuff makes me uncomfortable. Stop doing it. However, he communicates that is going to make her feel like she's too much. Right. But then there's also this part of it of is that a belief about herself that she has had the majority of her life? Is I'm just too much. There's no space for me here, especially when things are chaotic or hectic. I need to be small. And so expressing my pain or asking for something from somebody is not something I would naturally do. Because all of that is risky. Right. If you've lived in an environment and grew up in families where reassurance was not necessarily offered, uh, or you being able to communicate and meet, I have a need for this, and that the need would be met, this is gonna be this is where you're gonna bump into this of saying, I don't know that I can actually ask for anything from this person. And I am in so much pain. I don't know. Like we always I always um use the analogy or the metaphor of betrayal is that impact, there's been a terrible tragic car accident, and the betrayed wife is actually ejected from the vehicle. The husband's driving, and when the accident happens, medical care typically does come around him and they haul him off. And unfortunately, what we tend to see in the relationship or the experience for the wife is then the pastor will come and meet her laying on the side of the highway and say really hard things like, Were you guys having sex? Is it time for you to get up and forgive him for crashing the car? So on and so forth. Okay, the reality of this event in this moment is that she is bleeding all over the place. And if a paramedic came up to her and said, Ma'am, what do you need? She would not have an answer. She would just say, I'm bleeding. Can you make that stop? And they'd say, How would you like us to do that, ma'am? And she'd go, I have no idea. I don't know. I just know that I'm bleeding. And I think that's what plays into this question here about helping a spouse understand where she's at and the challenge to knowing what she needs.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, and my encouragement to the the betraying partner, which is typically the the husband, would be to you know be able to again grow in some of that curiosity and to have compassion towards that pain, and not in a way of kind of carrying shame, because I think that's where so many men get wrapped up in is the like the shame of I've you know, I've caused this, you know, those types of things. But to be able to sit there, you know, with her in that pain, and that itself I think helps commute that just you know, the the empathy that you need to be able just to sit there and to listen and to enter into that pain, it's you know, and in a lot of ways, it's not too different than entering into some of the pain of our of our own stories. Like we don't want to do that, and that's where a lot of these kind of behaviors come from, you know, and then yeah, so I I think that's just such a beautiful thing to be able to do and to allow the spouse to express the pain and not, you know, and to and to do some of that work to, you know, if there's work needed to grow in the ability to to sit there and to you know provide that reassurance for her and that that she's she's not too much. And I think that's you know that that's a hard place, but I think it's a it's a good place to get to. And and I know couples often, you know, can get there, but it does take some intentionality on on on both parts. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I mean, I I want to even can we pause for a second and offer a definition for reassurance.
SPEAKER_04:Yes, please.
SPEAKER_00:Or even just an example of what reassurance is, because I think that is another place of breakdown that happens in the coupleship, is what she needs. She doesn't have words for, right? I don't know how to tell you, just help me stop bleeding. And then so he will jump to an assumption of what reassurance should look like for her. And oftentimes it's don't worry, I'm doing great. Or I went to group this week. What's the problem? And that is his feeble attempt at reassurance. And reality, most of the time, that's not what she's actually needing in reassurance. What she's needing is a reminder of is he safe? Are you safe? Are you telling me the truth? How do I know that you're safe for me again? Because that's what we're hoping that we're rebuilding in this is this safety, which then leads into trust, right? Because without trust or without safety, we can't trust anything. So, how do you show up as a safe person? Well, when you think about, I mean, again, I'm all kinds of word pictures, but when you think about getting in front of a dog who's been abused for a long time, and the dog is very scared, and you can physically you can visually see that that dog is very scared. You are not going to scream at the dog. You're safe. What's your problem? Right. You're going to potentially adjust even the posture, the way that you're looking at that dog, maybe even your heart rate drops. Like there's lots of things that can be communicated to that animal to say, I can be safe for you. And that can be the same thing with your partner. And helping her understand that you are trying to show up safe. Um I remember an event where I had a full-blown panic attack in our kitchen. And as it first started, my husband was standing up over me saying, What's wrong with you? Now, I think in the moment he was saying, What's wrong with you? from a place of fear. Like he wasn't sure what was going on. But what I heard in my anxiety and my panic was anger. It wasn't until he sat down on the floor next to me that it registered to me that he's trying to show up for me instead of reprimand me. Because that was the natural bent was the reprimand. And I was just like, I can't, my brain could not get to a place of saying, This is what I need. And I think about how that is exactly so much of how Jesus modeled connection for us was being with, right? Sitting down and just being with and being able to speak the truth and love over somebody. Like those are the things that I just would like just say that that is how you do it. You you get with them.
SPEAKER_03:You get with.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's a a beautiful image of, you know, I was actually thinking that, like when you were talking about, I was like, oh, what would I do? Like if there was a dog that was, you know, like just cowering and just fearful and you could see it and it's shaky. And, you know, I'm gonna get down on its level, you know. And then you talk about, you know, it was when your husband got down on your level, right? Sat on the floor with you. Um, you know, maybe you know, this could be a you know, a posture of sitting across from each other, looking into the eyes. I've done some you know different exercises where I've looked deeply into people's eyes and like ministry time type things. And there is something so profound just looking into the eyes, not even sharing words, but what you what you receive from that other person and what you can feel and experience. There's something really, I think, beautiful in that that is also. this sort of posture of really kind of like leaning in, like you know, getting helping to that that partner to feel that reassurance and to feel safe. Safety is so important in that. And like you know, you're you're not going to share anything like unless you're unless you're feeling you know safe. So you know as a as as the betrayed partner, how you know important it is then to try to help that their partner feel safe so that she can share, so that she can even heal. I mean that actually and I tell guys this all the time that that actually shepherds in healing for her. And the more she's able to heal and the more you're able to heal, the more your relationship is able to heal. So even though it's hard and you enter into that, you're actually creating an opportunity for her healing. And I think that's so important. And it's so easy for guys to kind of lose sight of that because they get wrapped up in the in the moment or in the difficulty of that or the reminder of the behavior or the shame and and so that plays such a huge role. But yeah just that getting down on a level like I even see like you know sometimes if if if if if the couple's in a place where touch is okay like a hand on the knee or you know again safety is important you know so it's like you know you want to communicate you know how can I communicate safety and not sort of a domineering posture because you don't this isn't about dominating or control. This is about connection. Yeah. Oh so good.
SPEAKER_00:And you can slide tacos towards her too sometimes that will speak blocks.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I'm totally jesting just thinking about that dog and like sliding a dog bowl across just put tacos on a plate slide them towards her.
SPEAKER_04:Here have this oh my gosh so and also I I guess in this too I'm hearing a little bit about you know there's a there's even a timing element. I mean you mentioned like you know obviously when life things are going on like you're not having these conversations you know on the quick you know or hey like uh you know I'm running so and so to practice in 30 minutes you know let's you know knock this check-in out or let's you know let's do this thing it's like no like you need like your full attention and time because you know there are and again we'll get to some some of these in a minute but there there are sort of quick check-ins and then there are you know more lengthy really deep heart level sort of check-ins and you just don't know how like how much time sometimes those might take but I think there's so much fruit that can come out uh of those again talking about the you know those invitations into creating safety and healing and how beautiful that can be so timing I think is important and it's important to for couples to help discern sort of when when you know and so I guess that gets into like you know maybe frequency of check-ins you know when is a you know a a check-in healthy versus maybe too frequent or is that is that a a thing what would you what would you say to that I would say that it's really important for you to understand the goal of the check-in so like you you just mentioned the you know quick hey let's we got five minutes before I take Jimmy to practice let's go do this that would probably for a lot would translate like we're gonna check the box and that means we're like we're like checking in with somebody who's being our accountability person maybe it's a a coach or a counselor who's assigned this to us.
SPEAKER_00:And so we just want to make sure we get an A on our homework. And maybe that is your goal. Maybe at that point in time that's the best you can do is just get A's on homework. But I do think it's important for us to step back and go, okay, what is the purpose of this? Why am I why are we be even being asked to do this? Why would we want to do this? It's hard I don't wanna so it's really always critical for us to get back to the why and the purpose. But okay you asked how often the frequency of check-ins yeah healthy check-in versus you know is uh can it feel unhealthy to check in too frequent yes it can actually I have seen it unfortunately I have had situations where a wife is in group or coaching with me or something and she continues to talk about how they're doing a check-in every day and she feels like she's like Alice in Wonderland. She's perpetually falling down this big tube of crazy chaos because she's being re triggered over and over again. Or I've had the situation where the husband or the betrayer decides that he's going to text her every time he feels triggered in the name of check-in and being transparent. And that does not feel healthy. And it doesn't necessarily mean that it's it doesn't need to happen. It just may not need to happen on that frequency. So I do think that frequency is is personal based on the coupleship. I think it needs to happen I would I I would always encourage you to overplan versus underplan because over planning means that you're going to potentially get a good solid two check-ins in a week versus oh we only do it on one time and then all of a sudden that's the night Jimmy's vomiting and we can't we can't do it. So I think the two times a week is really great. And then as you guys continue the work you may start to find out and discover that check-ins have become a natural part of your flow. It's the way you connect all the time. As the and I'm talking about somebody who's maybe been doing these for a year. Like all of a sudden this just the language this is how we talk to each other now is very transparent and giving each other information. But when you're in the beginnings of this and you're trying to start this reconnection with each other I definitely say at least two times a week some others if you're working with professionals and they advocate for more I say consider it but again also being really mindful of what's the purpose, what's the why behind this yeah no I think that's so good.
SPEAKER_04:So helpful to kind of frame up you know the the the reason for it the purpose for it and and again I think you know the more that this can happen the more safety that you know can can come out out of that. Absolutely yeah the the the husband can display behavioral truth which builds safety as well and so and then I love what you said too about it just kind of becoming you know sort of habit or natural in in a really beautiful way that this is just it's because of that intentionality and entering into some structured conversation you know you find yourselves connecting in a deeper way than maybe you ever have what you know on on which is crazy to think about um but gosh like when and I've seen that in in in couples too who are you know are just in such a different place and the the communication like the the check-ins and what was sort of birthed out of that it just becomes this beautiful deeper connection than than they've you know emotional connection than they've had you know maybe their in their entire marriage absolutely I've heard it being like one of the greatest gifts coming from betrayal is the connection and the check-ins that they've experienced with each other because it took them to a whole different level of intimacy.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah right we we kind of get it as a culture we get sexual intimacy if we're Christians we might understand spiritual intimacy maybe right but this is like an emotional and even intellectual intimacy that's like oh wow this is this is really rich.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah yeah this is great yeah and listeners I hope you're hearing us like you know these yeah we we understand these can be kind of scary to enter into and to begin but also just the the the beauty that comes from doing this over time especially as you're both um you know experiencing you know hopefully some healing in your own ways and what that brings to this check-in can really create that deeper emotional connection and you know just thinking about the intimacy pyramid and like that's bringing safety and safety leads to trust and to you know to vulnerability and to intimacy like just deeper levels like throughout your entire you know relationship and so you know check-ins are are meant to be helpful not not harmful again this is about connections not about control and how like if you both come in with that posture how can I connect with her how can she connect or can I connect with him gosh like it just sort of transforms that or has the uh you know ability to be able to do that from from kind of the onset and so let's get into some of the practicals okay we talked a lot about some different you know check-ins and and things like that what does a healthy check-in actually look like well I think it's really cool we've got so many really smart people in the community of healing and recovery now and so so many of them have come up with different acronyms to make it memorable and give us the ability to follow the structure so you mentioned that already that you know what there's a structure to it uh I think also a healthy check-in should have some understanding of like ground rules yeah and what I mean by that is it was important for us to start ground rules you mentioned like I'm I I'm a jokester I I do like to take a lot of things lighthearted and even in the beginning I also struggled with a lot of sarcasm from my pain.
SPEAKER_00:And I needed to be able to like help myself know that one of the ground rules was that this was not space for sarcasm. This was not space for jokes and things like that for a while. I mean eventually our natural you know natural things will happen but trying to help me show up in a certain posture like we've already talked about but there were some ground rules. The other ground rules that we had also established was you cannot course correct me in a check-in. If there is a situation or an issue that's going to be something different, you're not gonna come in here and reprimand me for things that I'm not doing for you because it's really not about me. When we call it a check-in it's not about checking in on her it's about checking in with self and sharing what is in happening within self and I'm going to share that with the person sitting across from me. Right.
SPEAKER_04:So again curiosity overjudgment all the things yeah yeah bringing you know bringing yourself this is a space to bring your true self you know to share and and again vulnerably you know but to share and then to practice you know being able to receive that and I think like you know there are some different you know prompts and questions that help anchor some of these conversations in honesty and connection and and one that that comes to mind for for me and that I'm most familiar with is fanos and and when I say that I always you know kind of emphasize that I'm not talking about the Marvel character you know that's so you got to really emphasize the Phanos with the F F-A-N-O-S and this comes uh I believe from Mark laser's some of Mark laser's work um which again just you know so helpful in you know the the work that he had done uh in in sort of this arena but fanos stands for feelings affirmation needs own or ownership and sub and sobriety and I'm gonna add a little bit to that in a minute but so I just want to walk through this and then you can share if there's a like a different sort of posture one that you're you guys use or you're familiar with but um so feelings and again this check-in is actually designed for both to share and and and more of not the checklist kind of okay we checked in but this is a typically this can be a shorter one I think it's designed to be a little bit shorter but that doesn't mean you can't sort of revisit it but this is you know one partner shares their feelings so they state their feelings not their thoughts just this is how I'm feeling I'm gonna be real with you right now and then an affirmation for the other person. And I love this so much we you and I were talking before we hit record that I I think in this process affirmations or like something calling out something good in the other person is so difficult uh at times because of pain or you know like I like or I'm dragging my feet for this conversation I want to have this conversation you know but now I've got to say something nice about you and it's like oh like okay you know and so to be able to say that but also to receive an affirmation is so huge I think when you're going through you know a you know betrayal or disclosure and and to and to remember hey like you know I I care about this person and there are good there are good things. It's not all bad and we can kind of get lost in that sometimes that you know you know but the affirmation so give your spouse an affirmation and say you know thank you for something or point something out you know that that that you're thankful for that they've done or or you know that type of thing and then needs you communicate a need so you ask a need that you might have for that day or for the for the for the week something you're something that you're needing and that's not necessarily from your spouse it's just something that you're communicating hey I I need this and you want to be really specific here you know you don't want to leave that sort of vague but be specific and asking for a need and then taking ownership owning you know something that you did or said oh yeah I I kind of talked to you in a really terrible tone and I just want to take ownership for that. I could have said that differently and I and I didn't and I'm you know I'm sorry you know I recognize so it's being able to grow in that and call that out it is helpful. I know for me that's even a struggle you know taking ownership for that kind of stuff is so hard but uh I know when I do it it's definitely noticed you know so taking ownership taking responsibility apologizing for maybe a way that that you've shown up and then for for the betrayer it might be sobriety like sobriety right so you're maybe just reporting on the status of your sobriety but I also don't like to just leave it there. I'm like okay also like sobriety and sort of the like what work like what work are you doing? Like what so it's almost kind of like trying to sandwich this by not just hey like you know and and I did slip today or you know whatever you know but this is what I did you know and I contacted like so what are you doing about it you know but also on the spiritual side like what is the Lord showing you you know about this about yourself in this in this process what what is he you know what is he showing you about him in this process you know about me in this like so I think there's a spiritual element here that can be really helpful and for and for the the betrayed spouse you know if you you you're not having to report on sobriety because this isn't something you know that unless you struggle with that you know but it for you it might be safety like you're the S is safety like you're communicating how you're either feeling safe or what you need to feel safe and then also the spiritual you know component for you know for for for her as well. So I think that's a beautiful structure and we'll we'll put that in the show notes as well um so that if if couples are looking for ways to enter into this is a great structure um again this is a shorter one you kind of go you know the the the one spouse will share completely through Phanos and then the other spouse will share there's not a whole lot of intended dialogue initially in that it's actually recommended that you don't and but then there are pieces later you can come back to hey you said you needed you know this like you know how can I help with that or how you know this so there's uh obviously opportunities to come back to that but the I think the heart of that check-in is to be able to authentically share with one another to be at least be able to enter in especially if this is early in the process this is such a helpful way early in the process to just begin getting into some sort of pattern you know two times a week once a week I like how you said it earlier kind of over plan but again every this might be a little bit different for every ever every every couple you know in in the beginning but what would you add to that like are there other sort of check-ins or or elements that you would want to to voice and bring into that Michelle yeah I think I will say we oftentimes we'll swap out the S as well and we'll use it for self-care.
SPEAKER_00:Love it like what are you doing for self-care? And I think that's an important acknowledgement for both parties. I think both everybody needs to be paying attention to what self-care looks like um the other thing I'll tell you is that I find that if you are aware of your spouse's love language and you're listening for that kind of thing within the Phanos, it actually makes this really significant deposit. So when you think about your spouse, if your spouse is the words of affirmation that A is going to matter period like it it just and you might want to just go overboard a little bit in the A because it's an opportunity for you to extend that. If they're if their love language is acts of service and you're hearing them share needs that may be an opportunity I'm not saying that this is a requirement but it's opportunity for you to start hearing okay what is it that they're needing I know that a lot of times I would say like I just I need a break I need I need to go to Target by myself and nobody talk to me. Right. And that was like so was there an opportunity for my spouse to show up and say hey let me make space for you to do that that that would have been very a loving thing to do and helping in that like you see me you hear me you're listening you're paying attention and then you know so just a little bit of food for thought think about some of your love language I know I'm getting kind of complex with that they're like what I barely got the acronyms now you want me love languaging too but it could definitely help in that place of helping your partner feel seen encouraged. So Phanos I love it I I'm just gonna tell you a fun story. I actually had an opportunity for about I don't know four or six months I got to lead a men's group wow yeah it was really cool. I was very grateful for the opportunity I was not able to fix any of them they're all still terribly messed up. No I'm kidding totally kidding but so we had talked about doing check-ins and the intention behind it and I decided that when we started our group every time we would do fanos and so we would go around the table and every guy would take a letter and practice doing a fan like he would practice giving an affirmation to someone in the room or he would practice expressing a need. And what I found is that there was such growth for these guys and their ability to then go home and do this with their wives because it was like they had this opportunity to practice this in an environment that they didn't feel super judged in. And they started gaining some level of confidence before they went in and now they're doing it with their wife. But they know she's like listening to every single word and like trying to make sure that he's getting it right and all those things. And so it was really cool to watch them stretch each other especially in the feelings area. Cause everybody was mad, sad, tired, hungry or bored and then we had to keep saying hungry is not a feeling like I understand you're hungry but that's not actually what we're talking about here. So yeah it was really cool to see them stretch each other in that space with the Fanos as an opportunity for them to then take that tool and feel really potentially more successful with it at home.
SPEAKER_04:So I love that what a cool opportunity and what a neat you know thing to to be able to do uh with a group of men and then witness that change and then and then for them to be able to go you know home and to to enter into that and to grow and um get more in touch with their feelings and their emotions like because I think again that's a big part of this healing process especially together in the check-in sort of in that check-in way is you know the more you're sort of growing again curiosity too right in that like the but the more you're growing in these these ways you're actually able to show up differently than you were before um that is maturity you know emotional maturity which is such a big part of this process is growing in that right your emotional maturity staying more regulated um learning how to do that and skills that help with that and because that is a big part of the check-in you know process I think yeah yeah yeah gosh that's so great all right I want to bring in a little bit of a spiritual component to this so you know rebuilding trust uh I think there's also an element where you know the the couple you know gets to a place where you know they are I think the spiritual intimacy together um and connecting and so being able to check in and then I don't know like end in end in prayer or you know when if things feel fragile what I guess yeah do you have a picture for the listeners like what spiritual intimacy might look like in that rebuilding phase through um through check-ins yes again I'm gonna use the the blanket statement that it's personal for everyone because immediately as you asked the question at first I thought golly in those situations where maybe he's in ministry or has been now in ministry and is now no longer in ministry yeah uh spiritual intimacy in that relationship could feel very very dangerous where she's still trying to dissect God and that spirituality from what her husband has chosen to do and then also serving God.
SPEAKER_00:Right. So there's a lot of that that still needs to be healed for her. So I think my first thing would say is approach this when you're ready. Don't forget that you can do brave things um and you can do things with courage. Yeah. So it may not feel super comfortable at first but once you start to sense that I would encourage you to follow the spirit's leading if it's like hey we we should probably start praying together again. I think that there is a real opportunity here. What I tend to hear is that most men are not spiritual leaders in their home which is very unfortunate. But so I think that this is also a way for us for men to be able to start understanding or start leading in that way spiritually coming in asking for permission to pray or how can I be praying for you this week and then following up on that. I mean it may start with uh he asking that question how can I pray for you this week and she shares something and then at the next check-in he's like hey I've been praying for this tell me how it's going I mean you want to talk about what you actually wrote it down like I would feel so seen if that happened like so but being able to even start with small steps like it doesn't necessarily mean we're just gonna get down and take communion and and prayer guts out for an hour. That just may not feel safe and it could be something that you grow to and grow into is how how can you still create spiritual intimacy even if you're not physically praying together. I think the other thing that we do naturally a lot of times among our believer friends is we'll share things that God is saying to us. So like you had mentioned the S being for spiritual I think that could be a great way to integrate some of that too.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah yeah and that brings up another good point too just even like you know bringing community you know groups mentors ministries you know close people to support couples who are who are going through this without replacing that sacred work between them you know so there's this this personal element for the couple but then they can also there could there can be this other spiritual element the external that kind of mean either speaks in or comes alongside and helps but doesn't replace that you know that that that connection because I think when you do get to that place I think you're right man like I just like you know you shared this prayer I've been praying for you I'm checking in now how has that been going you know what is like you know what is the Lord showing you like what is and you're right I think there is like that's for me that's like okay there's some behavioral truth in that like you know I'm following up with something I said I was gonna do and I'm telling you like the more you can do those things you know the more that does help kind of you know create a a a a safer environment you know just a safer feeling you know for for the betrayed spouse and so that that's critically important. I feel like we could go on and on and on and talk so much more about a lot of these different things but I want to I'm gonna try to wrap this up uh and I want to ask you one final question. And that is what words of hope or encouragement would you offer to a couple who feels like their check-ins keep going sideways?
SPEAKER_00:Well the hope I would say is one, I'm really proud of you for noticing that your check-ins are going sideways. I think that that is really important because still paying attention and going wow this doesn't feel like it's working but you're not checking out you're not you're not putting it off to the side means that there's still something in there that you're longing for either one of you. But I think there's an opportunity for us to step back and kind of do an audit on the check-ins. How are they going for us? Why are they working why are they not working? I have had couples completely eliminate the in for a season because the wife is so conditioned to care for the need that regardless of what he said and he would preface every time I'm not telling you this because you have to fix it but my need is and then he would tell her and she would still try to pick it up and it was like no wait that's still his to own so there was still like areas of healing for both of them her trying to say I'm not responsible for all of this I mean me tending to every one of his needs is not going to keep him sober. Right she has she has her own work to do about creating that space between the two of them and knowing that he can be in charge of himself. And so I think that even just in that audit being able to say okay what of what is actually where are we blowing up I mean are we blowing up every time you share a feeling because I take your feelings very personal. When you say you're tired, I immediately write a narrative in my brain that you're tired because I couldn't keep the sick kids out of the bedroom last night and so you were up to or like there's a lot of like false sense of responsibility that we can carry for another person's feelings. So just kind of paying attention to where are those bombs going off. And maybe that's where you start to seek counsel from group members, mentors or ministry support about okay, this is where we keep getting hooked and we get caught up and asking them like help me understand, help me brainstorm around other options. So it's not about completely eliminating it because it got hard. It's about revisiting it and saying okay it doesn't this doesn't work for us now. And we're grown up. I mean it's like I think about my boys I have a 13 year old son now. Well he's not riding a bike with training wheels anymore.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_00:Right. But he needed them I mean like for like a minute but he needed them for you know to get started and then it's like okay I don't need that anymore but I need something different and that's still the same concept like you're growing. And the sooner we fall in love with the idea that we're in process forever not like six months. I hate that when I have to tell a betrayed wife when she says how long do we have to do this and I'll I give the nice you know well it's a process. I'm not really sure what I have failed to mention is I've been on it for 18 years. So we're all in process but if you start to even look at this tool as something that can grow with you and progress, I think you're gonna find a lot of success that way.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah yeah that's really good that's really good growth I love the that I was drawn to that too and that idea of you know growing and and even like you know as we're growing there are growing pains. You know where we learned we learn sometimes from oh okay I I tried this in a check-in and that didn't go really well you know so maybe you know we need to try something different next time or I need to show up you know differently or like you know whatever we're we're learning we're growing constantly growing you know and yeah so I think that's a good word for that is just it's it's growth and it is a process it's ongoing it's an ongoing process and that's okay and don't be afraid of that but like you said I think embrace that This is a process. And again, I think wearing the cloak of grace and humility and curiosity and compassion over time can really make make a difference through this. So gosh, what a oh what a what an important conversation. As we wrap up, I just want to give you an opportunity, Lachelle. Is there anything from Hope Redefined that you're excited about that's coming up? Or I know you mentioned some things at the beginning, and we're going to put those in the show notes, but is there one thing that you want to take a minute just to kind of highlight or or elevate the the related to your work?
SPEAKER_00:Always. There's always fun things coming with Hope Redefind. But I will say before I forget, we actually created a free PDF for your listeners on doing a check-in audit. So it's just some open-ended questions that help you kind of revisit how are we doing in a check-in? What are things we can adjust? So it could be a document you take back to your mentor or coach, use it with them to talk through it. Maybe the two of you if you feel safe enough to sit there and do it together. So if you want to access it, you can go to our website and we made a special page for it. It's hope redefined.org backslash podcast friends. And so just you guys are our friends now. So podcast friends, and you can grab it. It's free PDF for you guys. So yeah, but things that are coming out of Hope Redefined, gosh, there is so many fun things and so many important things that we're looking for for 2026 from an angle of trying to continue to expand the resources and making them available to our partners and women who reach out to us for support. So probably one of the things that I'm most excited about is we're actually looking at adding a third retreat to our schedule for this for 26. And it's going to be a much our our retreats are small to begin with. There's only we only take 18 women, but this third one we're going to add in will potentially only take seven. And we're doing that for a lot of reasons, but there's a there, particularly women asking for that smaller space, even just for the privacy and confidentiality. And the answer is yes, we can make that happen. So um, we're really looking forward to that. And and then still doing the shepherding through crisis training. I'm really excited about being able to offer that multiple times next year.
SPEAKER_04:So yeah, that's so awesome. And I don't yeah, if anyone's listening, and and you know, I'm just telling you, I grew so much just in the work that I do and and being more partner sensitive going through that training when you guys did that under AppSat. So I love that. I I would you know tell everybody to to to take that. You're I don't know, you maybe need to be a professional, but it's so no, you do not.
SPEAKER_00:You are uh yep, you can be any lay leader, any person in a faith community that wants to know more about how to care for a couple and be a first responder.
SPEAKER_04:It's so needed in the church. So I yeah, I hope there are some listeners that will embark on that because it it truly was transformative in my thinking and approach when I work with my clients. So deeply grateful for that. Love it. And also just because you're hilarious. And so I got to meet you through that. It was awesome. So, Lachelle, thank you so much for for your heart, for the way you lead in this space. It was a delight to be able to chat with you today. And I'm so thankful for this conversation because I think it's so needed, you know, to help couples. What a what a beautiful way to try to help couples heal uh in this in this space. And so hope redefined, just hope in general. It just really is this an opportunity to influx hope, I think, into a relationship. So thank you for your time today. Delight and honor to have you on, friend.
SPEAKER_00:Thanks, Aaron. I appreciate it.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. And so, friends, let me let me just reiterate that you can learn more about Lachelle's work and by visiting hopewedefined.org. Uh, again, they have incredible resources. We'll have some of that in our show notes as well. But let me pray uh as we as we wrap up today. Father, we are so grateful for your presence in the hard and holy work of healing. You're the God who restores what's been broken, who speaks peace where there's been fear, and who teaches us to love as you first loved us. Lord, for every husband and wife listening today, for those still reeling from disclosure, for those rebuilding day by day, would you meet them right where they are? Teach them what it means to check in, not just with words, but with hearts that are open to truth and grace. Help them to listen without defensiveness, to speak without accusation, and to see one another through your eyes. Beloved, chosen, and worth redeeming. When shame whispers silence with your truth, when fear rises, steady them with your peace. And when hope feels fragile, breathe your life into their love again. Jesus, thank you for showing us that reconciliation is possible because of you. Make these couples living testimonies of your faithfulness and the healing power of your spirit. We entrust every story, every struggle, and every step of restoration into your hands. And in your name, Jesus, we pray. Amen. Until next time, keep pressing into the truth, keep walking in grace, and keep becoming whole.
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