Outgrowing Porn

What if freedom from porn isn’t about fighting harder, but about growing deeper? We sit down with author and coach Drew Boa to reframe the struggle with clarity and compassion, exploring how porn often acts as a regulator for unprocessed emotions and unmet attachment needs. Instead of battling urges with shame, we talk about befriending the parts of us that first learned to cope this way and inviting them into real safety and connection.

Ready to trade counterfeit comfort for a real connection? Listen now, then share your biggest takeaway. If this helped, subscribe, leave a review, and pass it to someone who needs hope today.

Resources from this episode:

• Husband Material Website
• Drew Boa Website
• Outgrowing Porn Website
• Outgrow Porn Free Chapter 1
• Amazon Link for Outgrowing Porn 
• Porn Free Man Conference
• The Rescue 

Free Resources to help you on your journey to Becoming Whole:

• Email us questions! info@regenerationministries.org

👉Men's Overcoming Lust & Temptation Devotional
👉Women 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Women overcoming unwanted sexual Behavior)
👉Compass 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Wives who are or have been impacted by partner betrayal)

Chapters

• 0:00 A New Way To See Freedom
• 3:15 Meet Drew Boa And Husband Material
• 6:23 The Pacifier Metaphor And Compassion
• 10:36 Porn As Regulation, Not The Root
• 14:23 Desires, Fantasies, And Their Stories
• 18:28 From Self-Hatred To Self-Compassion
• 23:06 Tools: Non-Dominant Handwriting
• 26:19 Tools: BOA Breathe Observe Attune
• 30:51 Inner Child And Older Brother Coaching
• 35:04 Locate, Love, And Lead The Child
• 39:44 Bringing Secrets To Safe Community
• 43:04 Hope, Healing, And Next Steps
• 46:19 Event Invite And Final Encouragement
• 48:59 Prayer And Closing Blessing

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:18

Hey everyone. Welcome back to the Becoming Whole podcast. I'm your host today, Aaron Taggart. And today we have a very special conversation that I think could change the way that you think about freedom, especially when it comes to the struggle that so many men and women face with pornography. We're talking about what it means to outgrow porn. Now, when I first heard that title, Outgrow Porn, I couldn't help but think back to childhood. I thought about the things that we are all used to that we outgrew. The toys that once captured our imaginations, but eventually sat untouched on a shelf. The shoes that used to fit, but now pinched our toes, and we needed bigger shoes. Or the clothes that we loved, but that became too tight, too small for who we were becoming. We didn't throw those things away out of shame. We just outgrew them. Because we were maturing, moving into a new season that required something more, something better, something truer to who we were becoming. And that is the heart of today's episode. What if freedom from porn isn't about fighting harder, but about growing deeper? What if the journey isn't about hating where you've been, but loving who you're becoming in Christ? Our guest today is my good friend, Drew Boa. Drew is an author, a coach, the founder of Husband Material, which is a ministry that helps men heal from the roots of sexual brokenness and essentially to help them outgrow porn. And Drew has a new book out titled Outgrow Porn Find Lasting Freedom Without Fighting an Exhausting Battle. And I know that this has been deeply resonating with men everywhere. He's shifting the conversation away from shame and striving and toward growth, maturity, and wholeness. And over the last couple of years, I've had an opportunity to spend some time with Drew on this husband material retreat. And it has been such a joy. Drew, I cannot even begin to express, man, how pumped I am to have you with us on Becoming Whole. Welcome to the podcast, brother. Thanks, Aaron. Man, that was a good intro for the book. Yeah. Well, man, I'm telling you, it deserves it. And we're gonna unpack that because I think this book, honestly, I really, honestly believe that this book has so much potential to bring so many sons. And I would say, even in daughters in some ways, I know this book is geared mostly to men. We work with men, women, and families. Really, what's underneath some of these things are the roots? It's specific to the human race. So even though there may be some undertones that are more about men, again, that's just natural because Drew works with men. Uh, and so we're gonna try to make sure that we hit both today. Definitely have that focus there. Drew, our listeners might not be very familiar with you. I know my coaching clients probably are because I bring some stuff up from you all the time. But tell us a little bit about yourself, who you are, what you do, and what has your journey been like so far?

SPEAKER_01: 4:05

Well, I'm 33 years old. I've been free from internet porn for the last 10 years. And that has changed my life. That is what I needed in order to be husband material, in order to feel confident about getting married to my wife and knowing that I could keep those vows. I'm still very much on a healing journey, yet I'm not where I used to be. So much of what I want to share is what has helped me not only get some kind of external results in my behavior, but stripping porn of its power so that I just don't have the same feeling toward it anymore. And that's a deeper freedom than just behavior.

SPEAKER_00: 4:55

Yeah. I know I think the greatest thing I've experienced about being free from porn is that I no longer have a tug of war going on inside of it really felt like a tug of war. Like I want to give God everything I have, and I want to give my wife everything I have. And then there was this other thing that was trying to pull me back and just felt like it was one side, the other side, back and forth. And so being free of that, you know, just having your heart become fully alive, and then being able to use that in the lives of others know that you're doing and that there's so much fulfillment in that. So praise God, brother, for your journey and for the healing that he's brought you and the journey that you're on, right? Still, still healing and and me too. I think there are things we continue to uncover that's like, oh, yeah, that's another place. That so, and we'll probably get into a little bit of that as we talk. So, husband material kind of came about. Tell us a little bit more about how husband material sort of came into play. You mentioned it like as becoming husband material. So, tell us a little bit more about husband material.

SPEAKER_01: 6:03

Well, I had experienced so much transformation and wanted to help other men, specifically without purity culture, without being motivated by fear or shame, and to have a culture of love and acceptance rather than a culture of control. So Husband Material started as a podcast in 2020, and then it became a community and a course and a coaching program, and now we do these retreats. But essentially, it's a movement of Christian men who are changing our brains, healing our hearts, and restoring our relationships.

SPEAKER_00: 6:42

Brains, hearts, and relationships. Yeah, so much, you know, yeah, to really change sort of from the inside out so that we can, you know, show up differently, offer, you know, something better to those around us. Yeah. Well, Drew, here we go. I want to start by getting into a little bit about your book. And you've got it right there over your shoulder. And I've got my copy right here. So excited. And I want to start with I want to start with this cover, man. A giant blue and yellow pacifier. And there you go. You've got one there too, just sort of for a reminder. Yeah. So instantly just drawn to that. And I think, you know, listeners and if they're seeing this on our channel, like, you know, they'll wow, like that's really kind of bold and bright. And tell us a little bit more about what's up with the pacifier.

unknown: 7:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 7:42

Well, earlier you talked about how when we were younger, we had shoes that no longer fit. We had toys that no longer held their appeal for us. And some of us had a pacifier that soothed us, that quieted us, and then eventually we outgrew it. We didn't have a pacifier accountability group. It was just a natural byproduct of maturing and developing. Well, porn is kind of like a sexual pacifier. I mean, think about the image of a pacifier. It's essentially a fake nipple. It's it's designed to mimic the human experience that we're designed for. And so it's a picture of porn. Porn is that fake nipple, it's that counterfeit connection that started for many of us at such a young age. While the pacifier image could seem shaming or humiliating, like I'm an adult and I still have this pacifier. It's meant to be compassionate and to say we know that men and women don't get hooked on porn primarily. Boys and girls get hooked on porn. Porn is a sexual predator that exploited us from a young age. So it's a sexual souvenir in a way that we imprinted upon often rather than real relationships. So it's honoring the fact that it's not the adult, mature, rational version of myself that's attached to porn. It's a much younger, vulnerable, wounded part of me.

SPEAKER_00: 9:29

Yeah. And needs to be healed. Yeah. Oh man. Yeah, that's so good. And I know that's I I love what you said too, just about that it's not meant to be a shaming thing. And you know, when I I think when I first heard you talk about this on your podcast, it really resonated in a way there. You know, I've got I've got four kids. I know you have kids. Two of my kids were pacifier kids. Yeah. And man, if they couldn't find that pacifier, holy cow. Sleep wasn't happening, you know. Right that but that was the thing that they had to have for the yes, it regulated them.

SPEAKER_01: 10:20

Yeah. And that's the function of porn. It's a regulator for our nervous system. Sexual arousal and orgasm is a very powerful regulator. It can both wake you up and calm you down. Whether you are anxious or apathetic or angry or ashamed, whatever you're feeling, porn can regulate it. It can help you come back to normal and avoid it and escape from it temporarily. So that's a huge reframe for many of us because we've viewed porn as a problem, which it is, but primarily it's a sexualized solution for unprocessed feelings. And once we can make that reframe, then we can start to deal with what's really underneath it.

SPEAKER_00: 11:14

Yeah, right. You know, like the crying little kid. Absolutely. I was just thinking about that transition from getting rid of the pacifier, because again, in the beginning, we talked about the maturing, and as you grow, you don't need certain things anymore. And so a parent knows that at some point that child has got to get to a place where they don't need that thing to soothe anymore, that there are other ways that they'll be able to find healthy ways to soot.

SPEAKER_01: 11:41

And Michael John Cusick talks about four different attachment needs to be seen, safe, soothed, and secure. That's what porn does for us. That's what a pacifier does in a way. It's a replacement for nurture and nourishment relationally. And that's the main shift we need to make in thinking about porn. It's like, well, what do I truly need? It's not sex. It's something emotional, it's something relational. And so a lot of our work in helping people to really get lasting freedom is to learn how to meet your attachment needs, your relational needs in a way that is life-giving and authentic and sustainable.

SPEAKER_00: 12:31

Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_01: 12:37

So those are like four words. Yeah. I've got a list of 40 different desires that you can use to get more nuance, like being accepted, being pursued, being chosen, you know, having home, friendship, safety, rest. Specific types of porn can symbolize these different things to us. And oftentimes the power of a specific type of porn is in the particularity of what it promises to our hearts. This was an insight that many of us got from Jay Stringer's book, Unwanted. If we start to get curious and study specific fantasies, we find out a lot about ourselves and what we are truly longing for because the things that arouse us are connected to deeper desires. Yeah.

unknown: 13:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 13:35

Into that in chapter seven. Yeah. Yeah. You got to face your fantasies. And we all have particular fantasies. There's no such thing as porn in general. There's only specific people in specific scenarios doing specific activities. Could be group sex, could be solo masturbation, could be older, younger, people with a certain body type, cultural background, power dynamics, fetishes. You know, I had a sexual fetish for braces and orthodontics that was always the focus of my porn searches. And I always thought that was weird and random, and I certainly didn't want to tell people about it. But as I began to learn more about my story, I realized, oh, that's connected to what happened to me in middle school when I had braces and a lot of other kids around me had braces. And that was really the worst year of my life. And that's the year when I was going through puberty that porn also came into my life. And so, oh wow, it's starting to make sense. And of course, there's so much more that I could say about it, but that created a shift in me from self-hatred to self-compassion.

SPEAKER_00: 14:59

Yeah. True. What's it been like for you to work with men? Because I know, you know, as I work with men in coaching, and I know for some of our women, you know, even here at Regen, working with other women who are trying to outgrow pornography. That, you know, that concept, you know, I first read that in Jay Stringer's book, Unwanted, that sort of paying attention to the things that you're sort of drawn to. And it's so foreign. What's it been like for you to kind of shepherd guys into that? What has that sort of looked like? And what have you kind of seen from some of the men that you work with and some of your coaches work with as you guys help unpack that for those that you work with?

SPEAKER_01: 15:45

Yeah. It is like a window to the soul. It is like an elevator that drops you down to the very bottom level of the depths of your heart. Because what whatever your your fantasy is, or whatever type of porn you prefer, is not something you actively choose or think about. It's it's subconscious, it's in your body. And so it's telling the truth somehow. You know, could ask a lot of questions about somebody's childhood to try to figure out, okay, where's this coming from? But if we look at a porn search, how it makes you feel, and then the exact opposite of that feeling, oftentimes it'll take us straight to the unprocessed experiences that are driving you. So it's kind of like a shortcut in that sense. Like I said, you know, it took me straight to middle school, the braces theme. For someone else, maybe a fetish for diapers would take them straight to early childhood and infancy. And so similarly, things like being attracted to men only in porn, even for a guy who's married to a woman, could be very significant. And I want to be careful here because I don't want to say that certain things cause these kinds of attractions and fantasies. It's more like certain things contribute and we can get a lot more clarity when we see all the contributions. Because if I ask my clients, how much of your relationship with porn do you believe is your fault? At the start of working with me, they will almost always say, It's all my fault. I honor the desire to take ownership there. That's something we have to do as adults. Yet this did not start with you. This this started way before you. And in your family, in your growing up experiences, and in the way that porn chose you. Porn is not just a pacifier, it's also a predator. And I realize this may sound radical, but I think that anyone who encountered porn as a child is a survivor of sexual abuse. Because porn vandalized your sexuality from a young age. Healing journey is so messy, and it can feel like, am I really making progress? I mean, you know, we're not talking about giving up a bad behavior here. We're talking about breaking up with a sexual predator who has been there for you for your whole life.

SPEAKER_00: 18:39

So hard.

SPEAKER_01: 18:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 18:41

I'll do some things in coaching with guys where we walk through what it's like to grieve the loss of that. You know, you think of most often when we're grieving, it's the loss of a person. And it just that cuts so deep because of the relationship on those things. But in this sort of similar way, we have a relationship to pornography and what it's exactly in our lives, what it's done for us, how it's gotten us through, like some maybe really hard times, you know, and that's hard, right? When you come to this realization that, hey, this can't be a part of, and it's not just like, you know, okay, well, I'm gonna set it down. It's like, no, think about it as if it has died and it's no longer a part of you. We'll do some activities that help with that process. When our awaken 360, they even do a letter, they write out the letter and do some work in that way in one of our modules. And I think it's just again, it's not something you would normally think of. And I think it's really helpful to sort of be led uh in coaching or you know, maybe by a CSAT or something to do some of that work to really understand that you know you're you're you're kind of saying goodbye to this, and it's gonna be hard. It's gonna, you know, just like when we grieve the loss of a person, it it's sort of like there's gonna be times where you're you know, you want to see that person again, you know, like oh, I miss such and such, and oh, if I could just have one more, you know, 10 minute, you know, with them, or and kind of be the same way.

SPEAKER_01: 20:10

Yeah, and so grieving and writing a breakup letter can be helpful because it's like, well, maybe I still have those thoughts and temptations to go back, and maybe I might relapse, yet we've broken up. We're not getting back together. If I keep going back, maybe I haven't made the official breakup, and that would be a good step. We need to be careful that it's not motivated by fear or shame, but that it's motivated by love and a sense of identity.

SPEAKER_00: 21:12

Yeah, so much compassion. I keep going back in my head to what you said about the pacifier and just the context and connotation that it might invoke, you know, is the shame. This is so much about compassion. And outgrow porn is probably one of the most compassionate approaches I have read in regards to getting help and trying to really move away from the power that pornography has had in someone's life, and so you have so many good things in here, Drew. You've got tools in every chapter, you have visuals and charts and oh my gosh, like I'm a visual learner, and so uh as like I'm reading the words, and then I see this in a chart, I'm like, yes, like that's what he's talking about. This is amazing, you know. And then again, I want to get back to the tools because these tools I think are what really set your book apart. And I think it's what makes it so accessible for an individual to read and to apply these tools and to start to grow in their journey of outgrowing porn. And so I'm curious, Drew. We wouldn't have time to get into all sort of 10 of these tools, but what are some of the tools? Maybe two, highlight two tools for us that you would say maybe is a good place to start, or just that you would emphasize that maybe show up more often than maybe another tool.

SPEAKER_01: 22:52

All right, I'm gonna teach the tool at the end of chapter one, which is available for free as a PDF. And it's called non-dominant handwriting. So in non-dominant handwriting, you get two writing utensils ideally of different colors. You put one in each hand. And in your dominant hand, for most people your right hand, that will represent your adult self. And in your non-dominant hand, so for most people your left hand, that will be your younger self. It could be your child self, your teenage self. You get to choose. And you go back and forth like a text messaging conversation between your adult self and your child self. This is such a helpful tool because, as I said, it's not the adult me that feels the pull to go back to porn. It's a much younger part of me. And when I write with my non-dominant hand, it's messy. It can only be a few words at a time. And that allows my right brain, my emotional, passionate part of myself that has sexual fantasies, for example, to express itself in a raw, honest, unfiltered way. And then my adult self can bring kindness, compassion, attunement, containment, love, gentleness, tenderness so that I can get those attachment needs met, even just on my own. I don't even necessarily need to call a friend or go to an appointment with a professional to be able to have this powerful experience. Now, sometimes we even take a third writing utensil in and have Jesus respond. If you have a positive view of God and you can get an impression of what Jesus is saying to you, that can be a powerful part of the experience too. So this non-dominant handwriting experience is inner child work for beginners because it's very easy to get into. I even had one person said that they did seven sessions of EMDR trauma therapy, and this is the best conversation they've had with their inner child was through this non-dominant handwriting. I didn't make it up, but wow, it's powerful. It's bilateral stimulation. So it gets both sides of your brain. It's something you could just try on your own, it's something you can practice. So that is one that I would strongly encourage people to try.

SPEAKER_00: 25:25

And we're gonna get into a little more inner child healing in a minute because there's something in your book that's just resonated so, so deeply with me. But what would one more tool be that you I would really like to kind of share with us?

SPEAKER_01: 25:42

Yeah. One other tool that you can use anytime, anywhere, in any situation is BOA, B-O-A. Yes, I named it after myself. So that you can remember it because memorable is portable. So B-O-A stands for breathe, observe, attune. Breathing is our superpower for self-regulation. Remember, we said porn is a regulator, so is breathing. And that could be deep belly breaths that many of us are familiar with. It could also be power breathings, such as the Wim Hof method, where it's more like and both of these types of breathing can really help you regulate, even when you can't think straight, even when you don't know how you're feeling, even when all you want to do is something you don't want to do. Like breathing can plug your brain back in, essentially, and give you a little bubble that can help you make a better decision.

SPEAKER_00: 26:51

Specifically, can I jump in there real quick? Go for it. As as I'm thinking about these different breathings, you know, I think again, the pacifier in your book, I'm thinking of a baby. A baby is sort of you know dysregulated and it's crying and screaming, and then it says the cry of Yeah. That's a that's that's real.

SPEAKER_01: 27:12

It's real. And one of the best ways to help a baby calm down is to hold them close and breathe deeply. And your breathing will regulate their breathing over time. It's remarkable how we can down-regulate each other. One person's non-anxious presence has a ripple effect on everybody else in the room.

SPEAKER_00: 27:34

Yeah. You know, I think of even in that way, I think of Jesus on the boat in the middle of or everyone's freaking out, and he's like, God, it's good. I'm trying to sleep in her.

SPEAKER_01: 27:44

Yeah, so so breathing, and then O stands for observation. Non-judgmentally noticing how I'm feeling. For example, hmm, I'm noticing that I'm feeling the urge to watch porn. Or I'm noticing that after I saw that attractive person today, something keeps taking me back there. Hmm, what's behind that? What's underneath that? Just observation. And it could be sometimes an emotional observation because sexual temptation is often secondary. It's often just the surface level of what's underneath. It could be loneliness, it could be stress. It could be part of my trauma that got triggered that day. And now I'm feeling the need for the pacifier. You know, simply noticing emotions. It could be noticing your five senses. There are lots of great ways to get into your five senses, into your body, which keeps you in the present moment. And that's actually really helpful for realizing that what happened to me is over now. And I'm in the year 2025. Some of those grounding techniques for observing my body or my physical surroundings can also be part of the O. And then finally, A stands for attune. Attunement is kind of a fancy word, but it means reading and responding to the underlying needs of a person in this context. So what do I really need? Is it to be seen, safe, soothed? Do I need to call a friend? Do I need to go for a walk? Do I need to do some non-dominant handwriting and say, Hi, little Drew, how are you feeling? And then he'll say, you know, or whatever he's feeling. So attunement is befriending yourself rather than battling yourself. I love that. You know, befriending my sexual thoughts and feelings rather than battling them. Now, yes, spiritual warfare can be a part of this. We are in a battle, and yet the battle is against evil. It's not against our emotions, it's not against our experiences. BOA, breathe, observe, attune. You can do it in 10 minutes, you can do it in 10 seconds. It's very helpful in the moment.

SPEAKER_00: 30:20

Yeah, that's so good. And it's almost like those, you know, sometimes when we don't know what to pray, or you know, we just say these one-liners or just these two words, or you know, even I even think in in some ways in Braveheart when he just looks up and he's like, Jesus, like Jesus, like you've got to come through. Like you've got right. So just even like the timing, yeah, it doesn't matter about the timing, it's more about the what you know what you're doing in that the regulation, the what you're naming, you know, and just oh gosh, man, that is so good. And there Are more listeners there. Yeah, okay. That's right. And again, I think those tools are so so good and so helpful in their own ways. And you know, and I think, you know, like anything, I think there'll be some tools that just really resonate, you know, than something else with you know with a with a reader. But you know, to get those tools, you're gonna you're gonna have to check out outgrow porn from Drew Bowler. Drew, I want to shift a little bit because we've talked several times kind of in and out of this idea of sort of inner inner child, and I, you know, and I'm a I'm a big fan of Eddie Cappucci, does a lot with the inner child. I know you know you you guys have crossed paths many times. He's been very inspirational for you in the work that you do, and same for me. And so I want to highlight, well, there's actually kind of two chapters that I think get into both of this, and that's chapter one, just sort of right out of the gate. It says, Kill the boy to free the man. And earlier you talked about it's not men or women that get hooked on porn, it's boys and girls, and that's pretty profound feel. And so there's something that almost needs to, if that's true, which I believe it is, how do we help that boy? How do we help that girl in the place of where that addiction started, where it was introduced, where those wounds were, and you get into that in chapter nine. Yes. Chapter nine is heal your heart, and you introduce this concept called older brother coaching. And this could be older sister coaching if you're listening, you're a woman. These concepts, again, true works primarily with men. So you you know, what you'll see in this book is sort of you know a book that seems like it's written to men, but that that's so applicable. And so there are you had mentioned, I think, in even in a podcast that you had done, there is a powerful documentary on Disney. And I think the documentary is better than the movie because Amazon. Yeah. Watch a documentary first, it's worth watching the movie. But The Rescue. The documentary is called The Rescue, and you can find it on Plus or probably some other streaming things, and it is probably one of the most gripping things I have heard when we think about boys get hooked on porn, not men. And so, for those of you that don't know, this is a story about a Taiwanese soccer team who are in a cave. They're kind of out, you know, one day after practice or whatever, riding bikes, they go into this cave, and it's during their raining season, and the rain starts to flood the cave, and the boys get trapped inside the cave for something like 10 days or something. Before they were discovered. But just a remarkably gripping story in general. But then to bring sort of some of the analogy of this younger brother coaching in relation to pornography and this story, Drew, you write about three things that are essential for that younger, for that younger brother, for that little boy. And that's to locate the boy, to love the boy. And I almost also hear they're like to tend to their knees, because when they're found, like they needed food, they needed water, like they needed to be tended to, right? So there's you know, locating the boy, loving the boy, and then leading the boy. Can you speak to that a little bit? I just think this chapter is so helpful, and I think it can be so helpful as men and women begin to think about the wounds that they may have experienced when they're kids. Because here's the thing, and you and I were kind of riffing on this before we started, is that I am 42 years old, and I had things happen when I was a kid that maybe I didn't know who to talk to about it. Or is this right? Is this wrong? Is this normal? There's something in me that felt like this shouldn't have happened. I don't know what to do about it, and I didn't feel like I could talk to my parents, I didn't feel like I could talk to myself friends, and so I bottled it up and I hit it. And so there's this wound that I experienced. But here's the thing I grew up. The wound was covered, not healed, and I grew up. And now in my own journey, right, I ended up turning to pornography to soothe, to feel soothed, secure, safe from wounds that I experienced when I was younger. But I'm an adult now. Those didn't happen now. So this idea of going back, this older brother coaching, I think is so helpful in an individual's journey to outgrow porn. Can you speak to that for us?

SPEAKER_01: 36:11

Yes. We all have things that that happened to us that shouldn't have happened to us when we were kids, and things that should have happened for us that never happened. And that includes conversations about sexuality that never happened, appropriate sexual developmental experiences that never happened, encountering porn that never should have happened, perhaps sexual experiences with other children or or with an adult that should never have happened. And when those experiences are not processed, it's like a part of us gets trapped in a dark cave. Like it could also be perhaps attractions that you never understood or wanted or liked about yourself that you never told anyone about. That's also an example of a part of you that gets trapped in a dark cave. And heartbreakingly we as adults have also been neglecting those parts of us, maybe even reabusing those parts of us by condemning ourselves, or by taking taking that little kid back to porn, back to his or her abuser. So this amazing healing process starts with locating these little boys and girls. Because it's not just one. We don't have just one inner child, it's more like an orphanage. And Eddie Caparucci has identified like 12 types of inner children that you might have. But it starts with locating, okay, where is that boy? Is he stuck in his bedroom or in the middle school locker room? Or at his uncle's house. Or where is that girl? Is she back at preschool, back in middle school? Things that happened maybe in college. And simply naming that is helpful. I have some tools for helping you locate the kid. One of the most important questions is when have I felt this way before? So you know, if I'm feeling lonely, if I'm feeling super stressed, if I'm feeling like horrible about myself, okay, when have I felt that way before? Sometimes that'll lead you straight to the kid. And then the second step is just loving this part of me exactly as he is, or for a woman, exactly as she is. Being with rather than trying to fix or solve. In this older brother or older sister coaching model, you want to build trust with this part of you rather than just saying, okay, let's get out of the cave, time to leave. Like we have to slow down and build a relationship first and say, no matter how long it takes, I'm right here with you. And I'm not gonna leave. It reminds me of Jesus.

SPEAKER_02: 39:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 39:56

Who says, I will never leave you. I am always with you, even in the darkness, no matter what happens. Even if you choose to go back to the darkness again and again, he's right here. Yeah, you know, so we get to embody that and and even invite Jesus into that. You know, even if I don't feel like I can love myself, or if I feel negatively toward my inner child, sometimes it helps to say, Jesus, will will you come into this experience and and be that loving, safe adult?

SPEAKER_00: 40:41

I've done that in coaching, Drew, and and it makes me think of, you know, I've heard John Elders talk about it as like integrating prayer, kind of bringing Jesus back to these places and letting sort of tend to the boy with you, so that the boy sees sort of you with Jesus, but it's really about Jesus kind of healing those those wounds and those places.

SPEAKER_01: 41:10

Right. And I used to really wrestle with this concept of inner child work and is that really biblical or Christian? But I no longer see any contradiction between the truth that Jesus heals us and many different things can heal us. He's in it.

SPEAKER_02: 41:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 41:32

And the last step is to lead. And that really requires a lot of attunement to what does this little boy need? What does this little girl need? And then being able to guide them out of the cave into your life now, into the health and connection and confidence and purpose that we were created for. And leading leading the little boy or the little girl out might be as simple as opening up about something you've never told anyone before in a safe supportive group. That might be a way of bringing the little boy or the little girl out of a dark cave into the light. To say, here's a specific type of porn that has had power over me. Or here's here's the thing that I don't like about myself. And you and I have seen that happen at retreats and the way that the love of God just overflows in those moments.

SPEAKER_00: 42:43

Amazing. I think I could probably share this and protect confidentiality and those things. But on one of your retreats, the first retreat that I came to a couple years ago, had an older gentleman in the group, maybe 70s plus, and he had this moment when we were doing some small group ministry time where for the first time he was able to, just like you said, share that. And he described it. I'm gonna get tear here, man, because it was profound. But he said ever since that abuse happened when he was younger, he basically sort of shut the door on that little boy. And then, like 60 years later, he's able to open that door for the first time. And to witness that and to pray into that was one of the most remarkable ministry moments I've ever got to be a part of this work. And so, yeah, this man, this is real. Like this inner, like the inner child, the older brother, older sister coaching, these concepts of oh my gosh, of locating, of loving and leading the little boy or the little girl within, and to be able to find healing. And man, this is just a snippet of what you offer in your book.

SPEAKER_01: 44:13

And it's very practical. It's not just a counseling or coaching or therapy session. It's the next time you're tempted, that little boy or little girl is showing up. And I have to choose if I'm gonna open the door or close the door.

SPEAKER_00: 44:27

Yeah. Well, that's so powerful. I mean, I'm so grateful, you know, just what Jesus can do and that compassion. I mean, he knows what's needed in those moments. And yeah, just a beautiful journey that is. And I know a listener right now might be thinking about something that's happened to them, you know, or that little boy or little girl that they shut in a closet. And I think just through this conversation, even just this chapter, there's hope and healing for that little boy or little girl, which is going to bring even greater hope and healing to you in your present journey. And so I would just encourage you to pick up a copy of this, these tools that Drew lays out, these different chapters. And then obviously, this one that we highlighted is just so deep. It hits at such a deep level. And if you have an opportunity to watch the rescue, you'll be able to make these connections a little bit more vividly because you get to kind of see it and what it's like when like the boys were found. Yeah. Yeah. And care to the boys, and now they're it could stay alive a little longer. Like they're still not out yet. So that still needs to happen. But in time, you know, they figure out a plan, you know, spoiler alert, you know, that it's a documentary because it ends incredibly. Well, I'm just thinking about our own stories. There might be parts like I've created, you know, maybe there's even been some where that's been brought out. And it doesn't mean that it's gonna be easy, it doesn't mean there's never going to be some pain points, some memories, but I think it does offer so much in the light of hope and healing, and even that Jesus is there and he wants to go there with you. Yes. Man, it's good news. It is such good news, brother. Drew, this has been an awesome conversation. But before we wrap up today, I know you guys are doing some just awesome things over at Husband Material. I want to give you just an opportunity to share a little bit about anything that's coming up, things that are on the horizon that you would want to just take a few minutes to speak about.

SPEAKER_01: 46:54

Yeah, we've got a free live online conference coming up called The Porn Free Man, January 9th and 10th, 2026. It will also be recorded so people can get the replays for seven days. And we are gonna have five fantastic speakers who will be leading us in things we talked about today. And you know, heal the boy to free the man, and you know, our desires and like the things that are in our shadow that that need to come into the light and and be loved. So these are the kinds of things that we will be leading people through for free at the porn free man, and you can find out more at the pornfreeman.com.

SPEAKER_00: 47:44

Thank you for sharing that, Drew. Drew, I feel led to let you maybe give the last word for our conversation today. Anything that you want to just sort of like this is the lasting thought from the podcast today. What do you want to stick with our listeners?

SPEAKER_01: 48:04

Yeah. I once had a client who was engaging with his three-year-old self. And at one point in that experience, he said, This little three-year-old had never heard the gospel before. And during that few minutes, he introduced his three-year-old self to Jesus. Jesus said, Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them. For theirs is the kingdom of God. My hope is that everyone listening to this will have a new awareness of the little children within you. Let them come to Jesus.

SPEAKER_00: 48:59

That's it. Thank you, brother. And friends, don't forget, pick up a copy on Amazon or outgrow porn.com. Let that be something that just helps you on your journey. Do yourself a favor if you're listening. And if you don't struggle, do someone else a favor and pick up a copy for them. Because I truly believe, like I said earlier, and I stand by this, I really believe this is one of the most accessible and helpful books on this topic of outgrowing porn and putting it not just behind, but you know, when we turn away from something, we turn towards something else. And so what are you turning towards? Jesus, is it the compassion and the growth for understanding where these things came from? It's so much more than just turning away from pornography. It's what you're turning towards. And that's the outgrowing. You're outgrowing, it doesn't fit anymore. There's no need for it anymore. There's something bigger and better because you need a new clothes. Fit who you are as God's beloved child. Yes, the beloved sons and daughters forevermore. Well, let me close us in prayer. Father, thank you for being patient with our process. I thank you that you don't shame us for once what we once felt like we may have needed, but that you lovingly invite us to grow beyond it. For every man and woman listening who feels the tension between the old and the new, Lord, the familiar and the free, would you remind them that you are not disappointed with their growth? Lord, that you are delighted in them as your sons and daughters. Teach us to let go of what no longer fits. Help us to trade our childish ways for childlike faith. And clothe us again in compassion and courage and the confidence that comes from knowing we are your sons and daughters. And in your name we pray.

SPEAKER_01: 51:19

Let's go.