Becoming Whole
Relationships and sexuality are areas of life that can be beautiful or confusing, life-giving, or painful. Becoming Whole is a conversational podcast for men, women, and families seeking to draw nearer to Jesus as they navigate topics like sexual integrity, relational healing, spiritual health, and so much more.
Becoming Whole
From Shame To Realignment
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Repentance doesn’t have to sound like a finger wag. We explore a better way: turning as realignment with God’s character and kingdom. Especially for those worn out by “just stop it” advice or guilt-heavy apologies that never seem to change anything. Drawing on the idea of metanoia—the turning of the mind—we share how repentance becomes a process shaped by what we feed our attention, who we walk with, and how we pray with our bodies when desire runs hot, and feelings run cold.
If repentance as realignment sounds like good news you could live with, press play. Then share this episode with a friend who needs hope, subscribe for more, and leave a review to help others find their way into freedom.
Resources from this episode:
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You’re invited to Regeneration’s Annual Dessert Fundraiser on Thursday, March 19, at 6:00 PM at Martins Valley Mansion. Join us for an encouraging evening of real stories and renewed hope as we celebrate how Christ is bringing healing and restoration in our city. Dessert is provided, and seating is limited. Learn more, register, or host a table RSVP
Free Resources to help you on your journey to Becoming Whole:
👉Men's Overcoming Lust & Temptation Devotional
👉Women 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Women overcoming unwanted sexual Behavior)
👉Compass 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Wives who are or have been impacted by partner betrayal)
Josh, when I was in college, I uh I started to realize that John the Baptist was called by Jesus the greatest man who had ever lived up until that point. And John really only had one message repent for the kingdom of heaven is here. The kingdom of God is at hand, repent for the forgiveness of sins. Josh, growing up, uh repentance for me meant saying I'm sorry. Uh that was kind of the main way it was used in our house. But again, back in that kind of college stage, I began to realize that there's more to it, which actually was overwhelming to me in college. If repentance meant more than just saying sorry to God, what did that mean for my sexual addiction? So I'm James Craig, uh director of projects here at Regen, a spiritual coach, joined by Josh Glazer, our executive director, spiritual coach, author, and uh and friend. So, Josh, I'm curious for you, man. Did you have uh have you ever had a similar journey with the word repentance where you kind of had to reevaluate what it meant and reflect on it in a deep way?
SPEAKER_00:Um whenever whenever I'm thinking about reflecting on something in a deep way in a conversation with you, I want to say yes, but maybe maybe not as much. Um but I mean that as a compliment. Uh I I do know specifically around the area of of sexual sin, like the idea of repentance. So my idea of repentance growing up, I don't know where I got it, was just you you stop doing the bad thing you're doing, like just turn away from it, stop it. Interesting. Um and as a guy who struggled with sexual addiction for years and years and years, like I I didn't understand how repentance wasn't working. Yeah. And so um, so I think in some ways, like repentance for me almost fell out of my own favor. Like I I if I could say it that way, like, I mean, why even repent if it doesn't really work to repent?
SPEAKER_01:Um kind of feels like a bad word sometimes, doesn't it? I don't know if any of our listeners are feeling like a tension in your body or or stressed out thoughts all of a sudden as we use this word repentance. It's often been wielded, right? In a in a kind of tough way.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, almost like uh it's it's what you say to to bad people, you know, like it's a it comes as kind of an accusation from someone who's who's holy. And even that in that context is kind of a bad, a bad word. Uh I mean you know what I mean, like the uh the holier than thou, like finger pointing, yeah, yelling.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Have you ever noticed that some of the people who are are tend toward that often will use the second person, uh, you, you, you, you need to repent. I noticed today I was uh reflecting on scripture and Paul was talking uh to believers, I think it was in Colossians 2, and he switches from you, speaking of kind of general or somewhat even positive things, to us as basically needing repentance. And I was like, that's an amazing switch. Like he defaults to the the we when it's like we all need to grow, and he might do the second person you when it's actually more general or even affirmational. So I found that interesting.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, I mean, I think that just fits Paul. I mean, he's not afraid, he's not afraid to call people out and to name PC. But he is he does have a humility about his own position, who he is. You even see that that progression in his letter writing where he goes from kind of I think the the end of his life, the latest letter, he's calling himself the worst of all sinners. Yeah he's he isn't he does not seem to have a a concept of himself as having been having outgrown the need for repent, having outgrown the God's grace.
SPEAKER_01:So so Josh, we got to figure out today in 30 minutes or so, how do we go from the like angry preacher in all of our heads, or at least in our our two heads, saying, repent, you need to repent, you're so messed up, to actually believing this is good news, that this is actually something that is an invitation to goodness, to life, to love, to joy. Another way to think about it, um, I know we've we've sent this video around our office a few times, but there's that I think S and L skit of just stop it, guy. And, you know, hearing a little bit of your understanding of this word, for me it was more say you're sorry, like repent. That's what we we understood repentance as in my house. For you, it was like just stop it. Yeah. So how do we go from just stop it to there's actually hope for change or something more robust? Yeah. Uh and I I'd love to share kind of my understanding in just a second, but anything else you want to share about your understanding, Josh? Especially in light of the sexual sin journey, like the just stop it, taking that into your journey with sexual brokenness and sin.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, two things. One is um it makes me think we we somebody on our team always will give some attention to what do we name this podcast? And we sometimes it's very on the nose, sometimes a little more um outside the box. And I think for this one, we we probably don't want to name it something having to do with repentance for the very just repent exclamation point and be a good uh yeah. Because some people might decide, okay, I'm I'm not sure. I mean even if they're not conscious about it, might avoid it. But yeah, you know, the unexpected invitation to something, but um might be a better way to approach it. Uh I w I want to just throw out an idea about repentance and and and hear as we unpack or as we move forward if if maybe there's validity to it. But one of the things that I I came to um believe about repentance over the course of my time, both my own journey and also walking with other men and women, is that is that repentance, unlike what I thought, which was a uh a one-time decision, once made, always made, you know, the story kind of decision of the will, kind of. Yep. And then it and it comes with some kind of power that makes it so that uh that repentance actually can be does include certainly moments of decision, uh, and and maybe even hardy ones of of uh and we can maybe I can share a story or two of like hard decisions of that that that did change things. Uh, but but in a larger sense, repentance itself can be a process. Um so I'll leave it at that.
SPEAKER_01:That's one of my key thoughts too. So we're gonna get to that for sure, Josh. I really appreciate that. And even if a decision's happening in what seems to be a moment, I still believe there's a process. So we'll we'll get to that in just a little bit. And and Josh will uh will show me where I'm wrong, you know. So we'll we'll we'll joust, you know. No, so my my understanding of repentance, Josh, is um, I'm gonna pull out the Greek word meta noia. Might be familiar to some of y'all. Meta noia. Um, literally, meta is the turning, it's like turnaround, like the word metamorphosis, the changing or turning. And then noia, uh, the word for mind in Greek. So the turning of the mind is how I understand it on a super literal level, turning the mind. But the way God's using it, the way Jesus uses it, the way um even John the Baptist is using it, here's how I think of repentance. I think it's rely realigning with God's character and kingdom. Realigning, starting with the mind, with God's character and kingdom. But the mind being a little bit like the um, you know, the steering wheel on a ship or something like that, or the rudder, it begins turning the whole thing, even if it's not as instantaneous as turning a car. That's why I said ship. But it's this process of realigning our minds and then later our entire beings with God's character and kingdom. What do you think of all that? I mean, anything you would tweak, anything you would uh add or subtract?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, one one reflection, one question. The the reflection is right out of the gates, it seems to open up like the the terrain of repentance to be a lot more than just kind of that singular narrow line one way, narrow line the opposite direction, kind of. It seems to I mean I like I like your your analogy of the ship. It's not it's not just a U-turn in a in a tiny little, you know, tiny little car. Um it's uh you know, maybe a turnaround in a in an in an SUV, a suburban or something that like a ship, it kind of it takes maybe some time. But but I guess the the one of the questions about you said beginning with the mind, maybe unpack that a little bit for our listeners because I think that how what does that mean? Like how do you change your mind? Um and how is that a turning as opposed to a um you know a sudden a sudden shift? Or is it a sudden shift? Is it a kind of I had a revelation and or an apocalypse of of of thought and suddenly I I see the things differently.
SPEAKER_01:So how would you Yeah, man? Great question. So first of all, I I I never used that word metamorphosis in this context before. So that might have I hope I hope that was like the spirit whispering that, but it makes me think of how when uh when you know a caterpillar is changing into a butterfly, it's a turning of sorts, but it's actually also becoming. That's a word that um our old colleague Bob Reagan would use all the time, that that a huge part of this journey is a journey of becoming who we are made to be, becoming the full person we were made to be. So when I say it begins with the mind, but doesn't end there necessarily, I think of how um this is going to be pulling a little bit from Dallas Willard, but he basically has this amazing little image, and maybe we'll be able to feature it in the show notes of the entire human person. So he believes that um the outer layer is our soul, like all that we are is actually encompassed by the soul. And he kind of goes layer by layer, you know, social dimension, body, mind, and then heart being the absolute center of the person. And he's like, you want to change your heart, right? You want to change your center, your core. You want to um change the command center. But actually, the change doesn't happen by just quickly changing the heart, like, you know, again, turning the steering wheel in a small car. The change happens by what you fill your mind with. And for Willard, what you fill your mind with um is one of the most fundamental aspects of our will we actually have. What we choose to allow into our mind. If I I always use this example, but if I'm binging, you know, um soap opera on Netflix for 12 hours on a Saturday, my mind's a lot less free Saturday night to think perhaps God's thoughts. Maybe there are Christian soap operas. I have no idea. I'm not actually trying to, I've no, I don't really know what soap operas are like. I've never actually seen them. But but if you're filling your mind with one thing, that actually limits the scope of what is possible. Our wills are free, according to Willard, but they're not uh strong. So what we allow into our minds informationally, but even more fundamentally, Josh, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, the people, the community, the uh the yeah, the the communion, if you will, of people that we surround ourselves with, the people we're in closest relationship, you could argue are are a key element of what we're allowing into our mind, if if not the most key element. If we're surrounding ourselves with God day in and day out with others, that shapes the way we end up thinking so much more than just and I love good teaching, I love good information, but just good information is one element, but I think even a more powerful element often is what who, the hoo-hoo that we're allowing into our mind. What do you think of all that?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I mean, I I can't help but to go back to your your example of the soap opera. Like if I binge whatever it is for X number of hours, I become less free to be able to think the thoughts of Christ or to to walk in the ways of Christ. Like that just makes so much sense. And I think that's actually such a gracious and yet sobering way to think about the freedom that we have to choose what we watch or think about or where we spend our time. And um and it also but I I find it gracious because it helps it helps us to recognize too, like if I've if I've indulged in porn for years and years and years, or for the last two hours, say, and then I find myself tempted, um, I I in some ways I've made my own bed there, you know, like I don't mean in a in a definitive forever and always kind of way, but yeah, it's not it's not God tormenting me. It's not um it's it's not because I'm such a terrible person. It's just that's the way my bind my mind is designed by God to work. I've spent my time focused, meditating, you know, you know, quote unquote meditating on these images, these ideas, these sensations, and then my my mind is actually continuing to do what it's designed to do as I walk away from that. Um yeah, I think it's the same place that Willard says our it's our most fundamental and basic freedom is the freedom to choose what we think about. Yeah, we allow that makes a lot of sense. Um in relation to the the people we spend time with, that's actually a new I mean in this context, that's a new thought for me. Like that that uh that choosing who we spend time with is a part of our repentance or a part of our, to go back to what you said earlier, aligning our our lives and our thoughts around the kingdom of God. But I experientially I can say I resonate with that a lot. Like um I mean for me the the idea that that comes to mind most is when I'm spending time with people who uh who spend a lot of time praying, yeah, who listen to the voice of the Lord, like I almost feel like there's something that just comes alive in me in conversation with people. Um I've got one friend who uh just loves the Bible. And uh when I talk to him about the Bible and and what he's learning in the Bible, like I get so excited about the Bible. Um it's just and it's not like something outside of me is happening to me. Like it's not like I I'm I'm not becoming them, but like something comes alive in me that yeah, that I that is of the kingdom that's real. And um, and so for that reason I really enjoy spending time with those those people.
SPEAKER_01:Um I actually I wanna I just want to invite our listeners, um, especially those struggling with sexual brokenness, uh, which or you know, the the impact of the betrayal of that or even parenting that, would you pause for a second and ask the Lord, Lord, would you provide more of that, those types of people in my life? Would you provide um the the Bible lovers, the prayer lovers, the the people who love God so contagiously that they make me love God by just being with them more? Josh, this happened that me and my wife last night. Um, we picked up a book by Francis and Judith McNutt. And they're just like, you know, they're very uh important figures in some of the charismatic renewals, um, Catholic uh couple. And as I'm reading this book, I'm like, this book must be soaked in prayer because it led me to just cry in the most like joyful type way. You know, when you're crying, you're like, this is just exactly what I need to release and to pray with passion. And and that doesn't happen to me often. I wish I was able to, and you know, I think I'm growing and being able to experience that kind of emotionality more and more, but but like something about being in their company, so to speak, even just through this book, but but next to my wife and before the Lord, like it just created this environment of like, I want to love my wife more. I want to love God more. I mean that wow. I mean, these are I've never actually tied all this into repentance, by the way, Josh. So just as we were praying before this, that this the Lord would just be unfolding this. Like, I'm like, man, yeah, this is a key part. So if you haven't already, just pause, friends, and and ask the Lord, Lord, who or what do you want me to be filling my mind with? Not just in that kind of I get legalistic about this, Josh, honestly. If I'm just completely honest, like, oh man, I shouldn't be doing X, Y, and Z. I gotta turn the volume down on this and that. And of course, there can be a place for all that type of things. Um, but it's actually, again, this joyful invitation. Like, who are the people who actually make me come alive in the Lord more? Who are the people who stir hope in my heart, who I feel the peace of God? I'm not saying, hey, cut everyone else out and just be around those people, but how do I be around those people, including Jesus, who is one of those people? Kind of sounds funny to say, but completely peaceful, completely joyful, completely loving, completely filled with hope and fidelity or faithfulness. I mean, yeah, spending time with him could be can and is one of the key ways we do this, I think.
SPEAKER_00:Well, and I I I want to push back on the I'm not, I know you didn't get into a lot of detail about how you're quote unquote legalistic about it, but I think one of the things I want to make sure our listeners know is that um there's a difference between legalism and um and just right behavior. There's a difference between legalism and living within the boundaries of reality. And so, for example, your illustration, but that's one of the reasons I like your illustration before about like I'm not f I'm I am free to watch as much soap opera as I want. I am not free to move on from that and have my brain and body work in full alignment with the kingdom of God if those soap operas are not aligned with the kingdom of God. Yeah. Like I know for me, anxiety and fear are are are big struggles in my life. And and there was a long period of my life where anxiety and fear were often the triggers that launched me into sexual sin. And so to be very diligent about like what in my life is producing more anxiety and fear in me is important. It doesn't mean I can avoid everything, but if there are things I can avoid, yeah. Should I spend my time watching you know this show that that has no, you know, there's no sense of God in the show, it's all up to the people, and there's really evil stuff happening. Like, probably not. Like um, I'm free to watch.
SPEAKER_01:For news too. Like a lot of our listeners probably if if you're in our American culture are hooked on news, the the rage news cycles, right? And very seldom is news giving good news. I mean, Josh, literally, I live in LA, as you know, and we need rain so bad, but every time rain's coming, it's like the biggest, even the weather app. This is just on the iPhone, just the weather app will give news headlines. I wish you could turn this off. I've written to Apple to be able to turn off this stupid feature. Um, but it's like catastrophic rains are coming, and it's gonna it makes it sound like it's gonna destroy our city when what we desperately need is the rain that God's providing. And I'm like, we actually just stop and be grateful a little bit. So I just want to agree with that that like so much of what we allow in, guys, we assume, hey, I just need to avoid porn. I just need to avoid uh the the the places where I might be tempted sexually. But we're actually saying go way before that in the repentance process, friends. Go way before that. Notice, wow, I just got amped up on adrenaline and fear after 10 minutes of reading the news. Now, I'm not saying everyone's called to cloister themselves that everyone has to bring this before the Lord when it comes to things like the news, but but if you're not able to pray the news in peace or to go through it, it's perhaps actually one of the things that is creating the environment that makes sexual sin thrive.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah. One of the things I wanted to say, um that that's so helpful. And I and I probably should leave a greater pause between that and and going back to another part of our conversation because uh I think that that alone could be the the huge takeaway for somebody in the realm of repentance in their in their lives. Going back to the relationship piece, uh one of the things I I want to encourage people with is is that um we're not necessarily talking about 24-7. We we are talking about prayerfully seeking out people in your life who um who can be around you the nourishing air that helps to remind you who you are, going back to uh become who you are piece. But um I lost my thought. There's something related to that that I I I wanted to make sure we said um repentance and relationship. Oh, yeah, yeah. If we it's another one of the reasons that it's so important that we have people in our life who who know the truth about what we're dealing with. Because it's one thing to spend time with somebody who loves scripture, loves prayer, loves the Lord, discerns the Holy Spirit, uh, all all well and good. And and not all those people in your life need to know every bit of your story as you're struggling with sexual sins, but to have some people in your life for whom there's an integration between they know the stuff you're struggling with and they they live and walk with the Lord, like that helps to integrate and bring, I think, a level of metamorphosis to this part of our lives. Because so often this part can be kind of sequestered away to this a different place. So I think there has to be some integration between being being known in that way as we are come becoming who we who we truly are. Does that make sense there? Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, the more we can bridge these places. Um I mean, it just makes me think of the proverb, right? Like uh something there's some proverb in the Bible around who you're surrounding yourself with, right? It makes such a difference. And this is why we commend things like groups, guys. It's not just the information at a group like Awaken 360. You're getting good, truthful information. Um, I actually think life changing truths, but the other part of the equation is you're gathering with people who are going after. To the same goal, which is namely intimacy with Jesus and moving away from sexual sin, such a boon in this repentance journey.
SPEAKER_00:Well, yeah, and that makes me, I mean, I'm just going to double down on that for a minute because like when you're going through, like, say on on your own, reading life-changing information, if you're the only person and then you're walking into the storm of your day or your week or your month, like how much harder is it for that information to take root in you as opposed to when you're taking in life-changing information and there are a group of brothers or sisters or brothers and sisters around you who likewise are grappling with and digesting and talking about those things helps to nourish the soil and and helps those seeds to take root in you. I mean, I one of the the great blessings of my wife and my life in the last couple of years has been joining a a core group of a small group at our church where we're studying the spiritual disciplines and then practicing them together and then coming back to talking about them. Yeah. It's this is through John Mark Homer's practicing the way. It's it has been so rich and and valuable to us. I mean, and to the whole group. And we kind of are, if I could put it this way, we've just, you know, this group has met become has become they become like true brothers and sisters because we're practicing metamorphosis by these with these disciplines. Um yeah, it's so good, James. Such such richness there.
SPEAKER_01:All right, we're almost repentance. Yeah. So I'm thinking like, okay, so much of what we're talking about is actually getting ahead of an act of sexual sin, right? Which is when we're usually thinking of the word repentance. So we're gonna come to that in just a second. But I just want to summarize like, get ahead of this. Like, repentance doesn't need to start when you're tempted or when you're giving in. Repentance, this new mindset, this realignment with God and his kingdom starts way before that. It can start. So that's an invitation. That's really and that's unfolding as we're talking, Josh. I love it. But a lot of listeners are also like, okay, I gave in to sexual sin this like today or this week, or I just found out my my spouse did, right? So I just want to do a little bit to untie some of um what repentance is and what it isn't in that kind of moment, right? So you've just given into sexual sin. We actually mix up a lot of these terms, and I might be wrong on these. There might be a Bible scholar listening who's gonna give us some correction and definitely invite that. But I think it's really important to at least recognize that confession, contrition, and conviction can all be part of repentance. If repentance is this big umbrella, which expanded in my mind today to include way before the sexual sin or any sin. But but after we've given if we've given into some form of sin, we often conflate the feelings of contrition, feeling bad about our sin, which is a great thing, by the way. It's a gift. Every time I felt bad about my sin in a truly God, godly, God-loving way, it leads me into deeper repentance, as Paul says, right? Um conviction, being becoming aware of my sin, becoming like I believe, I define it kind of as um recognizing, like, whoa, I've been going the wrong way here. Um, confession, one of the most amazing commands in scripture comes with this idea of confession, telling others about our sin. We will be healed, we will be purified. There's mercy, some great verses about confession. All of these, I think, are part, can be part of the journey of repentance, but they actually don't need to be, they they can't, they're not like one for one. Like I feel bad about my sin, therefore I've truly repented, or I'm aware of my sin, therefore I've truly repent. I've confessed, I've truly repent. And here's why I'm sharing this. So many of the men I walk with feel so much shame around these things. They feel shame of their lack of feeling bad about their sin, most especially. That's the one Josh I noticed. Like, man, I am I really feeling bad in a way that is like that Psalm 51, sackcloth and ashes after David has committed adultery and had a man killed. Like, he feels terrible about his sin. And then they get stuck also in this dynamic of, am I feeling bad about my sin for God's sake or my own sake? All of that can mix up this process and make it like, what does it actually mean after I've just given in to some sexual sin or whatever? Or even I've become aware now, oh my gosh, I'm feeding fear every day as I listen to this particular news outlet, whatever it is. When we when we mix up some of the feelings and and some of these other elements, I think it increases shame and it makes us more stuck. What do you think of all that? Any questions or comments about that, Josh? Or have you thought about those different terms in some of the ways I'm describing them?
SPEAKER_00:No, no, not the terms that way. So I'm I am curious. So you're saying that when that that that those all can be a part. Contrition, confession, conviction can all be a part of, and not in that order necessarily, can all be a part of repentance, but they don't they don't mean they're not the same as repentance. Are you also saying that that so and maybe we should define real quickly? So contrition is is an authentic feeling badly about our sin.
SPEAKER_01:Feeling sorrow. Yeah. The Greek word that I found for this uh a while back is lupeo, which means grief or sorrow or pain. And and I think Psalm 51 is a great example, or even Isaiah 6. I'm a man of unclean lips when Isaiah is in the throne room. I think that's actually contrition, feeling like the sense of sorrow, like whoa, you know, the heaviness of that.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, yeah. And we could probably spend a lot of time talking about contrition because you mentioned some of the can confusion or or difficulty people have with that. Um conviction is the is there's a a a holy kind of recognition of like what I've done is sin. Uh it's it's real in me, I'm doing it, and it's it's sin. I gotta stop it.
SPEAKER_01:I will not be able to pronounce this right, but the Greek word that I have for this is allegko, aleko, e-l-e-g-c-h-o, uh, which is the transliteration, but to expose, to convict, to reprove. I think of John 8, when no man throws a stone, they're convicted, they're kind of reproved. I think of also Psalm 139, search me, God, you know, like show me what's up, like show me, show me the places 10 steps ahead of giving into pornography. I'm actually beginning that path, you know, with the fear or whatever, like we've been talking about. So conviction being that recognition piece.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. And then confession is maybe the clearest out of the three, at least in my mind, is like, this is just me confessing to another person. This is what I've done clearly and plainly as sin.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and and the Greek here is homologio or ex homologio, which is to speak the same, to agree. We're basically just saying to God and ideally to a brother or sister, I agree that this was wrong, that this was something that dishonored God that actually ultimately hurts me and others. Yeah, to just kind of speak that agreement.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. So those three things um uh contrition, conviction, confession, are are can fall under the umbrella of repentance, but you're also saying that they're that are you also saying that they don't necessarily mean that you've repented? You can actually have all three of those things present and have not repented.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I'm actually speaking more so the opposite. You could be missing one of these potentially and still have truly repented. Um, I yeah, I actually think if you are feeling godly sorrow, as 2 Corinthians 7.10 says, godly sorrow brings repentance, right? If you're great, like wonderful. But if you're not, you can still actually turn. You could still actually realign with God and others, you could still actually confess and agree, God, this was sin. And I need your purification and I need Jesus, who's the only sinless one. You know, so I uh when it especially comes with contrition, honestly, I think even conviction, like I think sometimes without fully recognizing the depth of what we're doing or what we're up to and all the ways our brokenness is. If Paul, if Paul at the end of his life, Josh, as you said, right, if he really believes and he's being honest, that he is the this chief of sinners, or he can see his sin more deeply than perhaps ever before, it's probably not because he's doing the same types of sins he was doing 30 years ago. Like it's obviously he wasn't persecuting Christians anymore. Uh, he didn't have that murderous anger, whatever. He has a deeper conviction of how broken he is compared to this amazing God that he worships. And so I think even without the fullness of conviction, obviously conviction is typically the first step. Okay, I did something wrong, aware of it. I'm gonna bring that to the Lord or bring that to others or whatever. But I think even without full conviction, full understanding, but it does also say in John 16.8, when the Holy Spirit comes, he will convict the world of sin and of God's righteousness in the coming judgment. So this is a big part of what God's up to is showing us where we're going wrong. Because how else can we go right? How else can we enter into his love and joy if we don't know where we're going the other way?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I mean, I I've often I I I will pray at times for conviction. I will pray at times for a um uh uh a heart of contrition, yes, in part because I I want to fuel repentance. But I also hear you saying that that if you find in yourself, let's say, let's talk about sexual sin. If you find in yourself, actually, man, I really love this stuff. I mean, I I just desire sexual sin so much that I don't feel as badly as I think I quote unquote should if I fall, that that does not need to keep somebody from the the act of repentance or or practicing repentance or moving towards repentance. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01:So what would well so this is an interesting thought. As you're bringing this up, Josh, I'm thinking about how so often the Old Testament, and probably you know, in the New Testament, we just don't see it as overtly, they do these physical actions to represent what's going on inside so much. I mean, actually, there's this awesome doc. I might be able to put it in the chat or the um the show notes, but uh basically it shows in the Old Testament there's seven key words for praise in Hebrew. The ones used by far the most are not to sing worship songs, the ones used by far the most are things like casting your hands out, um, which is interesting because a lot of churches either do or don't do that, right? And it's kind of can feel like a stark line to kneel down, to prostrate yourself, to wail. These are words that are actually our translated worship in our in our modern Bibles. And so when I think about this, I think in our culture, Josh, we can be so concerned with the authenticity of an action. Like, okay, I don't really feel that bad. So I'm just gonna, you know, go back to to whatever and keep myself numb or whatever. Instead, they're actually the the Hebrew, uh, you know, the pre-Christian, the Jews were they were actually entering into stuff purposefully. It wasn't saying, hey, if you feel it, raise your hands, which is how most of us do in our modern Protestant churches, right? It's actually saying raise your hands because God is who he is, and this will actually get your body more in line with what's needing to go on or what's actually going on internally that you're so I I guess what I'm trying to get at is could there be an invitation here, Josh, even if we're not feeling sorrow, we're not feeling contrition, to actually adopt some of those places of like practice. I I don't know what practices would come to your mind, Josh. I mean, immediately I can't help but keep thinking about sackcloth and ashes, which I've never met any living person who's done that. So I don't know if that's a a good idea or not. But I'm just thinking about like, what are some of the real practical, not to punish ourselves for our sin, but to actually just enter into the grief of it, even if we're not feeling it. And I think I I think you're familiar with the the Jewish, some of the Jewish mourning culture stuff, like grieving culture. Like, even if you're not feeling a certain way, you're still getting together or you're still wearing a certain color clothing for a set time. I mean, these are just some physical symbols slash things that get your mind turned, perhaps, by using your body.
SPEAKER_00:Gosh, I well, I love this, James. I so one of the illustrations comes to mind or comparisons come to mind. Let's just talk about physical fitness for a minute. Yeah. Like we do not have the same. You gotta be authentic, you know? Like you just if you don't feel like it, you really shouldn't be doing it. Because we all understand, like, no, you actually have to move your body. And as you move your body, your body will become more adept at moving, and yeah, and you'll want to move more. Yeah. I mean, so there's there's joy on the other side of that. That we, I think we more naturally in that realm recognize that there's there's connection points between our feelings, our desires, our will, and our bodies. And so when you're talking about repentance and using our bodies to repent, it makes so much sense. I I know one of the things I've talked to guys, men and women about over the years is there's a point in my own journey where I I started to recognize that I was waiting for my desire for sin to go away before I would say no. And it wasn't, I mean, like I I fully intended, I wanted to give it up. I, you know, I I I was going to groups, I was going, I was in therapy, I was like, I was trying, but there were moments when I was tempted where I was like, I I mean, there's something in my will almost that was kind of like, I guess I'm not there yet. As opposed to like, actually, it's okay for me to say no when it when I when my body wants to do something I don't want it to do. And I'm I literally I have a memory of I was walking into a convenience store uh or walking to some store and somebody walked past me. And I I remember this is years and years ago, I felt like, oh, I I gotta turn around and and look at this person, lost after this person. And I remember thinking like, I'm not gonna wait for my desires to catch up with what I'm trying to do here. I'm not turning around. And I felt like something was tearing in me. I mean, I felt like you know, somebody was like I was kind of tearing myself away from something that had become so normal for me. But that was maybe one of my first experiences of like, I'm not, I'm done waiting for my desires to come around to what my deeper desires are wanting right now. Yeah. Yeah. Um so beautiful. Yeah, what you're describing is I think so important. We don't have to wait for the desires to go away. We don't have to wait for a contrition to be perfect, we don't even have to wait for our confession to be perfect. Like we can, we can do things to move towards repentance. And I love like I love the comparisons you're making to worship. It's this is you're not being inauthentic to align your body to move yourself, to move your actions toward that which is true, right, and beautiful, even before you're fully living out what's true, right, and beautiful in life.
SPEAKER_01:100%. I remember so much in Awaken, Josh, you talking about nights where you would, or at least uh uh from Christopher West, our friend Christopher West, you would learn to just go cruciform. Like obviously you're not believing that Jesus' death is not sufficient. And this is where actually some people really do get confused. So I just want to say this isn't saying I'm gonna pretend Jesus died to do some sort of uh earning of my of his love for me book, but by symbolizing it, by getting into that crucifix crucifixion pose laying on the ground. I remember you also have a story in Awaken that you you woke up one night having slept holding your wooden cross. You had built a big old wooden cross. We might even still have it at the office, but you woke up because you had held on to it. You felt some of the pain of it. And again, you got to be wise about, you know, the ways you enforce pain on yourself or something. We're not encouraging self-flagellation or something like that, but recognizing by getting into that posture of the cross, you're remembering Jesus' death when you're tempted, or by holding on to the cross after you've given in or anything like that. These can be these amazing symbolic, but I'm using the word symbol to mean almost like a sacrament, something that is like it becomes it's physical to engage the reality of the spiritual. I don't know if I'm saying any of that right.
SPEAKER_00:No, yes, it's it's sacramental. That's that's what it is. And in the in the in the broader sense of the word, that like matter matters. And so we we confuse the idea that somehow our our spiritual, like we need our spiritual life to come around to help us um abstain from sexual sin. When the reality is that like all this fits together. Like I I I've said this here before, I I come back to it. Like the the first commandment, love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. It it ought to catch, I think it ought to catch our attention that he doesn't just say love the Lord, heart stop, that he names these different aspects of who we are, which I think just means there's been a division, there's been a split, there's been a a disintegration, and we are after integrity. So any part of us that is disintegrated, like let's bring the part you can into alignment with what is true. Why, why do we think that we can pray with our with our mind, with our thoughts, or pray with our words, but cannot pray with our bodies? Why do we think it's okay, like Lord, protect me from temptation, protect me from temptation? But we but it's but we don't think to take the hand that we would that we might act out with, we might reach for sin with, we might masturbate with, and instead hold on to a cross or a crucifix. And that's what you're describing, that story of I mean, it was a it was just set up my room, and I I literally laid down in front of it and just like wrapped my hands around the the base of the cross and said, I'm not gonna let go, Lord. I'm I know that you're not this this piece of wood that I bought at Home Depot. But as a like I'm but I'm I'm taking my hands and as as much as I can, I'm holding on to this symbol of you. I'm making it I'm I don't know how to yeah, I'm just kind of trusting the sacramentality. You made this wood, Lord. Um, you died on a cross, not too dissimilar from this. I'm holding on to this because I I'm why I'm trying to hold on to you and I won't let go until this temptation passes. And then waking up, yeah, I don't know how many hours later with your face. And the temptation passed, and I'm grateful for it. It was prayer, it was just prayer.
SPEAKER_01:It was prayer and it was engaging your body in prayer, which we're so about. Josh, we have to wrap up. Uh, listeners, if you want more on this topic, let us know. Uh, there's always the opportunity in the show notes to let us know. Um, I just want to close with just a few thoughts and then give Josh any any last thoughts and ask for a brief prayer for us. But I just want everyone to hear this is good news. This is realignment. And whenever you're experiencing the joy of the Lord, you've you're in repentance, if I can use the word that way. Whenever you're experiencing love for God, you're in repentance. You're walking in the newness of the kingdom. You've entered into that gift by God's kindness. It's God's kindness that leads us to repentance. So important to say, because even as you're trying to understand, am I feeling, you know, understanding conviction or feeling contrition, or am I in this condemnation place? We didn't get to get into that much, Josh, but but it's the kindness of God that leads us into true repentance. Harshness or accusation or shame or even despair are works of the enemy. And I say that not to shame anyone, but to recognize, hey, this is uh there's an enemy out there who wants us to be in that religious style fake form of repentance where we're just, if I can go back to that word metaphorically self-flagellating, we are we're we're not experiencing the hope and joy and peace that can come when we're in this process of repentance. We're the fruit of repentance, really. And so when it's the Lord, when we're convicted by God, when we're feeling the contrition of the Lord, it is fruitful. It's good fruit, it's delicious fruit. When it's the enemy, it is ultimately fruitless. And so the invitation here again, I'm now picturing an umbrella, Josh, where if, you know, when we give in to sin, imagine that like the handle of the umbrella, the line. We can do so much on the front end to be entering in, being with God's people, being surrounded by God's truth, being with God Himself. But then when we do sin, when we do become aware of our sin, there's such an invitation to engage our bodies, to engage the body of Christ in confession, to ask God for that godly sorrow, all these types of things, so that we're entering into this process. We're entering into the, again, if you see that big umbrella, the wholeness of the Christian life is a process of repentance, of getting realigned with God and his kingdom. And so the fruit of that is actually meant to be goodness. And so I hope, I hope today did a little bit at least to recontextualize uh this word that might have, you might have come in hearing like, oh man, I this word just it's sour in my mouth. I want it to actually be a sweet thing. And it we don't want to minimize the the the impact of sin and and the and the need for like, you know, hey, that this is really harming my relationship with God and others, but we also want to recognize this is also an invitation to realignment with everything that is good. So, Josh, any final thoughts? And then would you pray for us?
SPEAKER_00:Hard to add to that. I I love the idea. I I love thinking about repentance as this greater invitation to the goodness of God. And I it uh makes I was looking up as you're talking. Mark one, after Jesus is after John is arrested, Jesus came into Galilee proclaiming the gospel of God and saying, The time is fulfilled and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent. And believe that you're condemned. Nope. Repent and believe your sins are crappy. Nope. Repent and believe in the good news. The time is fulfilled. The kingdom of God is at hand. You do not have to be under the condemnation or the um the bondage of the sin anymore. So repent and believe in the good news. So yeah. Just listeners, um, maybe just an invitation to pray and and uh um ask the Lord, like, Lord, what how do you want to open up repentance for me as something that is, in fact, a part of believing the good news? Not just uh, you know, uh turning away from the bad things I've done, but in what ways, Lord, uh are you inviting me to repent into a form of repentance that is believing the good news, changing my thoughts, changing my environment, changing my working on my friendships, all that stuff that I might believe the good news. Yeah, let me pray for us and we'll we'll wrap. Great. Jesus, um these are your words. They're not, they're not James's words, they're not my words. The time is fulfilled. The kingdom of God is at hand. Repent and believe in the gospel. Lord, if this is what you came proclaiming at the very beginning of your ministry, uh, would you let the the word sink into us, to all the listen our listeners today, that we might indeed uh walk away, turn away from our sin and follow you. Oh Lord, we need it. We need you. So we pray these things now in your name, Jesus. Amen.
SPEAKER_02:Amen.
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