Navigating Romance & Fantasy

What if your imagination isn’t a liability but a lifeline? We open a candid conversation about fantasy, romance, and the deep longings that quietly direct our relationships with ourselves, others, and God. Rather than treating desire like a problem to fix, we treat it like a compass—one that often points to unmet needs for being seen, soothed, safe, and secure.

Join us, get curious, and take the next brave step. Subscribe, share this with a friend who needs it, and leave a review.

Also, we want to hear from you. What is your longing pointing you toward?

Resources from this episode:

Unwanted Intensive

Stuck in unwanted sexual behaviors and wondering, “How did I get here—and how do I get out?”

Regeneration is launching our next Men’s Small Group Intensive, based on Unwanted, designed for men ready to go deeper in recovery.

Over 8 weeks, you’ll:

• Engage your story with curiosity and compassion
• Identify patterns that keep you stuck
• Shift from a “freedom from” mindset to a “freedom for” life
• Experience deeper healing, connection, and wholeness

🗓 April 7 – May 26
🕐 Tuesdays | 1–3 pm ET (Zoom)
 👥 Limited to 6 men | High-support, high-accountability

Led by Aaron Tagert, Certified Unwanted Guide

👉Sign-up for Unwanted Intensive

Healing Through Story

Discover how your story has shaped your life and how it connects to your unwanted sexual behavior.

This is an 8-week course to help you learn the structure of your story, how to share your story, and, in turn, learn the power of your story. 

🗓 April 20 – June 22
🕐 Mondays | 7–8:30 pm

👉Sign-up for Healing Through Story

🗓️ Upcoming:

You’re invited to Regeneration’s Annual Dessert Fundraiser on Thursday, March 19, at 6:00 PM at Martins Valley Mansion. Join us for an encouraging evening of real stories and renewed hope as we celebrate how Christ is bringing healing and restoration in our city. Dessert is provided, and seating is limited. Learn more, register, or host a table RSVP

Free Resources to help you on your journey to Becoming Whole:

👉Men's Overcoming Lust & Temptation Devotional
👉Women 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Women overcoming unwanted sexual Behavior)
👉Compass 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Wives who are or have been impacted by partner betrayal)

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:18

Welcome back, friends, to the Becoming Whole podcast. I'm Aaron Taggart, and today I'm joined by the lovely Andrea Smithberger, who is one of our women's coaches and behind the scenes gurus here at Regeneration. Seriously, Andrea, you do so much for this ministry, and it is such a joy and privilege to work alongside you in our mission to help men, women, and families learn and live God's good, holy, and beautiful design for sexuality. Andrea, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

Thank you, Aaron. That is quite an intro. I really appreciate it.

Imagination, Creation, And Formation

SPEAKER_00 0:54

It's deserved. A lot of people don't get to see the behind-the-scenes things. Um, you know, and you just you do so much, and you you're a wordsmith, and you're just you're so, so, so talented and have such a big heart. Um, yeah, for for this work. And uh yeah, so I'm excited to get into our topic today. Today we're gonna hope to slow down a little bit so that we can all listen. Listen to our stories, to our bodies, to our longings, and to the gentle work that God is doing beneath the surface of our lives. We're stepping into a conversation that touches all of us, whether we've had the language for it or not. Uh, we're going to be talking about how fantasy and romance quietly shape the way we relate to ourselves, others, and to God by taking a look at longing, attachment, imagination, and formation. Because the thing is, desire is not the problem. Imagination is not the enemy. Our longings are not something to be silenced, but these parts of us are always being formed by our stories, our wounds, our relationships, and the narratives we absorb over time. So the question isn't whether we have desire, it's who or what is shaping it. And that's where we're heading today. So I want to start off by talking a little bit about imagination, creativity, and spiritual formation. So one of the most overlooked truths about spiritual life is that we were made in the image of a creator, our creator God. Creativity isn't optional, it's actually a part of our design. And imagination at its core is honestly the birthplace of creativity, which is why it takes um, which is why it makes so much sense that the enemy would want to distort or shut it down. And so immediately I'm drawn to some of the the work that uh I've done with clients and going through unwanted, and um, you know, Jay Stringer uses a lot of uh quotes in there from C.S. Lewis on this particular area, and saying that you know the enemy can't create anything, he can only take something that is first good and make it bad. So he's a distorter, he's not a creator, he's a distorter of what God has created and intended to be good. What are some of the thoughts that you have, you know, or come to your mind, Andrea, when we start to think about that creativity and how it was meant and how the enemy kind of enters into that place? What comes up for you there?

SPEAKER_01 3:53

Right away, I feel like I want to say I get it from my father. You know, I get my creativity from my father. And that immediately, like as you were talking about it being part of our design, creativity is part of our design and imagination being part of our design, that I get that from my father, my heavenly father, feels like um like I just want to sit up straighter, I feel proud, I feel um important, I feel um a calling and his delight right away. Um, so for something so special that is in us to, as you so poignantly put, um secretly and quietly distorted, um, it makes me want to go after it.

When Attachment Needs Go Unmet

SPEAKER_00 4:40

Yeah. Yeah, like go after it, protect it, redeem it, restore it, right? We're gonna get into some of that as as we unpack, you know, this today. But yeah, a hundred percent. Like there's this, and this is at our core too, you know. I mean, just even think about Adam in the garden, and God was like, Hey, guess what? Why don't you name all this stuff, you know? Uh, and the creativity of just coming up with names and and all of that, right? I mean, it is such a a core part of us, and because we're made in his image, um, that kind of creator uh sort of element is also put into us as well. Yeah, and so it is worth protecting, it is worth going after, like you said. Um and and again, you know, this can start to go awry, you know, when maybe our needs aren't aren't aren't met, or when there's attachment in our lives that's disrupted, or when delight, which you talked about, um when delight or safety or attunement and things like this are missing, um, our imagination can often become a place of survival rather than celebration. Um, and I see that, you know, in the clients sometimes that I work with, where they just they're it's you know, the loss of joy or the lack of joy, or you know, because of some of these different things. And it it's you know, instead of imagination, you know, being the space where beauty and hope are born, for them it might become the place where fantasy takes over, or they're trying to give um sort of uh you know, it's a false reality. You know, they kind of enter into this maybe false, you know, reality of you know what they are longing for. And again, I think that's where the enemy comes in and starts to really kind of skew some of those things.

SPEAKER_01 6:32

Um, and even as you're saying that, the idea of an unmet need is so hard to identify sometimes. Um, neglect is really different than like being physically abused, right? Or um not being seen is as traumatic and wounding as being hit. But we don't, because there's no physical wound, we we kind of uh hush it and shove it down, that wounding. And so that that is where the birthplace of that creativity being distorted of this secret and insidious kind of um pattern begins because it's not something outright that you can see. It's not something outright that you can call. It's this unmet need versus like an outright um abuse. Uh so we tend to like, oh, it's just the way it was. That's just how they are. And we it's something that we shrug off. And yet the wheels start turning because we are trying to meet something that was not met. Those four S's, my favorite. Um Dan Siegel talks about being seen, soothed, safe, and secure. And I always, when I talk to clients, um, I describe those as like the four pillars for how we move into relationship and connection with other people. And so if one of those is off, well, the foundation is going to be wonky. Um, and so we might try to build it up through fantasy. We might try to build it up through this equation that we build up in our head of, oh, well, A plus B equals C in my fantasy. Um, so I'm using creativity there to try and make up for what I didn't get. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 8:20

Yeah. And I love that pillar analogy too. And I'm even uh I'm picturing not even, you know, I went the other direction. So you went to foundation, I went to, oh, oh, crud, the roof is getting ready to sort of collapse on me because one of these pillars, right? And all the stuff that's kind of on top of that. Now it's gonna fall on me and it's heavy. And and then in our own strength, what we can often do is try to maybe step in place of that pillar and and put our arms up, sort of try to Samson this thing, you know, like let's I'm gonna hold up this corner now and and I'm gonna white knuckle and I'm gonna do the best I can and all of these things. And that's not that that's not gonna, that's not a long-term solution. That's not gonna work because you're gonna get tired, you're gonna be weary. And um, and again, I think that's a you know, a place where clients come in, you know, because maybe they've tried to sort of step into that area of that pillar, you know, and uh, you know, to try to bring safety in their own way, or you know, maybe not submitting something to the Lord and and allowing, you know, maybe even deeper excavation of their story, right? Find out like what is underneath all this so that I don't have to be the one that's holding this up. Um, you know, but the but the the Lord can do that.

SPEAKER_01 9:33

Can we just like pull out for a second? Because I love the fact that our creativity, our imagination immediately went to a pillar versus the roof. Like we we stepped in there and we we met something to make sense of something. We just did that within this conversation. So imagine for our clients who have uh a mom who um let's just keep it real high level, like just worked too hard and was not home and available, or a dad who um didn't know how to raise girls, so didn't pay attention to you, that sort of thing. Um and it feels um like just that's how it was. And so we we automatically try to make up for what we're not getting. Um, and that's creativity. And I yes, so we both just did that. We both just did that. So that's that's how we are. We are created to create like our creative God. That is exciting. So I think that there's a real tenderness and a I need to slow down because I'm getting excited. I can feel myself getting getting amped up here. That it is so worth going after to understand what was not met, what was not seen, how was I not soothed, where did I not feel safe? Um, where was I insecure? Where was I not built up in my security? And be able to um, I mean, gosh, even as I hold my heart to try and tend to my heart and ask myself those questions, those are tender questions to um really start to identify and I and understand the characters and the equations of our fantasy.

Connecting Struggle To Story To God

SPEAKER_00 11:18

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's so good. Um yeah, even just that be being present with it, you know, um something as simple as you know putting your hand on your heart or um just being aware in the moment uh is so is so helpful. And yeah, wow, way to call that out. Not even like necessarily trying to do any of these things, right? And it just that's how it came to us. Like that was the you know, you know, in the imagination, the imagery. Um, it's so it's so beautiful, and and it's a good segue actually into um talking about uh connecting struggles and stories to to God. So there's a simple phrase that we've used uh around the office, and I know you I know you've used this uh a lot, and that's connecting our struggle to our story and our story to God, um, and the importance of doing that because that I'm gonna just say uh right out of the gate, that work is not easy. That work takes so much courage um because you're stepping into in a lot of ways, maybe maybe where some of these pillars are compromised. Maybe the pillars not totally down, but man, you've you've experienced some insecurity somewhere. You've uh you know, you've needed to soothe something. Um, you know, you haven't felt safe for some reason, right? And and so there's you know, maybe these different sort of fissures or cracks in these pillars, and they haven't fully crumbled, but they're compromised. And over time, you know, that compromised pillar isn't going to be able to continue to carry all of that weight. Um, and so I think that's really where this sort of work comes in. Um, you know, bringing some of those struggles, um, you know, excavating, I think I said earlier a little bit more about our story, and then bringing our story once we've kind of uncovered some of these things to God. So um it starts first by naming our struggles honestly, um, not with shame or exaggeration, but with clarity. Uh, and I always say to clients that clarity is kindness. And you know, the the Lord in in you know, when even when he reveals things, maybe even through a dream or something like there's kindness in that sort of like in that maybe revelation or in the work that you know he wants you to step into. Um, and so clarity is kindness, and that invites us to reflect on our story with honor and honesty, and also curiosity and kindness, which are things that we don't do very well on our own because of shame. Um, right? So, how have you seen that in in some of the examples or work that you've done um with women, Andrea?

SPEAKER_01 14:14

Um, so right away I think about Psalm 34, 5 that those two who look to him are radiant, and not even a shadow of shame crosses their face. And that is always a prayer that I begin with with clients, um, because it is a tender, vulnerable, powerful thing to look in the face of your struggle, to look in the face of what your fantasy looks like, who's there, what's happening, where are you, why are you there? What are you looking for? Um, and so that kindness comes in, um, even with the tone of your voice, I think. Um, you know, when you're asking the question, instead of like, what are we doing here? Why are we here again? I mean, that's ugh, that's heavy. It's ugh. So instead to be like, who's here? Show me where we're at today. Um, what's happening in this scene? Uh, even just elevating your voice. And I mean, I think you can see me that I'm sitting up differently instead of like weighed down by it, it makes a difference. Um, and incorporate your body into what your mind has been working towards um feels like a really whole approach to uh what your heart is longing for, your brain is trying to achieve, and your body's just like, I don't get it, I'm not getting it. So, yes, I always start by praying Psalm 34, 5, and then incorporating um kindness, uh honor, honor towards the the younger version of you, because that's who it is that we're going after. It's this younger version of you that um it's helpful to have a picture of yourself when you're a little. It's not easy to do that, but to I have one on my phone um that I have on the ready um for when I need to tend to myself differently than I want to tend because it's not a that tend is not the word, it's just beat up. Um verbally just it's ugly. Um so to be able with clients with myself to have that younger picture of me, to pray Psalm 345, and to um face um face the stuff.

SPEAKER_02 16:36

Yeah.

Fantasy As Signal Not Sin

SPEAKER_00 16:38

Yeah. Yeah, facing is is really the really hard work, right? It's um you know, when when some of these other things are coming up, you know, we can we can flee and we can run from those things, but you know, I think that the best growth, you know, I've seen, you know, through clients and even in my own life, right, is the facing, you know, what what some of these things are, entering into that pain, entering into um, you know, those those different pillars, you know, those S's where there has been fractures um or even crumblings. Uh sometimes it really does, you know, it really feels like, man, that that pillar just you know you know was hit by a cannon. Um and now what? Um and so I think that's um it's so necessary, and and you know, this is work too that uh you know, I think you you really need to do with somebody. Um absolutely I agree with that, right? Like even if it's just a trusted and safe friend, like to enter into and share some you know different vulnerable places in your story, pain, you know, things like that. Um, obviously, you know, we do that at at regen, you know, with coaching, and um, but man, I would uh yeah, you for the listener maybe that's even just you know contemplating or thinking about what that looks like, like reach out uh to somebody so that you can face this. Um and Jesus is with you too. Um you know, he's closer than a brother in time of need. Um and and that's that's really true. Like, you know, I can't I can't make somebody feel that. I pray that all the time, like in sessions and things, but um, but my goodness, like he is he is right there with us, even when we don't feel it or or or see him, he he is there. Um, and something that I you know I've brought up in coaching often is I'm so drawn to the words, you know, when Jesus, you know, says, those who have ears, let them hear, or those who have eyes, let them let them see. And so I invite clients to, you know, like what you know, have ears, pray for ears to hear what he wants you to hear. You know, pray for the eyes to see in your story what he wants you to see, you know, and what does he want you to know? You know, sit with him in those things. And sometimes we do that together. And then, you know, what is what does he want to do about that? You know, what do you sense that he wants to do, you know, about that? And then we talk about that, unpack that. And so I think those are a couple of awesome ways to frame that up too. Um, you know, even if you're like, I don't even know, you know, in my story where you know let's just start there, Lord. Yeah, give me eyes to see and ears to hear, you know, what you want to reveal in in my story. Um, and then what do you want me to do about it? Um, yeah, what are you thinking there?

SPEAKER_01 19:51

I'm thinking lots of things. Um I'm thinking lots of things. Um, I think for our listeners, I can imagine like toes, hands, biceps, hamstrings, everything so clenched up, like cringe. Are you kidding me? You want me to say out loud what my fantasy is? You want me to actually name what's happening? No, thank you. Not to you, I'm not gonna tell you. Um but my goodness, the the freedom on the other side of that, when you can put into words what you've held so quietly in your in your mind, what you have crafted so carefully in your mind, and you can say it out loud. We have seen, we have been witness to in our own lives and with clients what it's like to have it out. Okay, it's out there. All the who, what, when, where, why of the fantasies out there. And then huh. Do you remember a time when you were left alone? Do you remember a time when you needed rescued and you and you got it? Um, or you needed rescue and you just hoped and hoped, and maybe that's where this is coming from. And all of a sudden, that's where that connecting the struggle to the story comes in. And that is a lot of work. Then all of a sudden, to be like, here you go, God. Can you take this? Because I don't know what to do with it. That that demands humility and surrender and open hands. It demands a posture of God, I'm just giving it to you. Um, and tell me what you want me to see. And it is wild. It is wild to see the connections fire, that connecting your struggle to your story and your story to God is mandatory work. It's must-do work in order to get to this true person that you are created to be. And you keep Aaron coming at us with the imagination, the creativity of the cannon blasting through and obliterating the pillar, the cracks in the foundation. Like I'm imagining with you. And that is the beauty of this gift. You are putting this gift on display for us as we're walking through something very tender. So thank you for that.

SPEAKER_00 22:16

Yeah. Well, thank the Lord, because I Just, I think that's where it's coming from. But um, and even on the other side of that, like I'm thinking, I'm thinking too, like, you know, even just imagining all the things we just talked about, like the hard stuff, bringing like stepping into these painful places, these wounds and traumas in our stories. And then now imagining Jesus with us in that place and time, when that happened when I was 10, when that, you know, when that, you know, when I saw or experienced this when I was 12, um, you know, when I needed this and didn't get that, you know, when I was 14 or, you know, whatever, right? And it's like, oh my gosh, like trying to imagine and call this sort of integrated prayer, like really taking Jesus back. And you know, some we do some of this in our coaching, um, you know, as we pray and just help really clients even just imagine now. Imagine Jesus with you in that, and you're no longer by yourself or alone. And maybe you're even there too. Call it, you know, you know, older brother, older sister coaching. Like, you know, if you're older, if your if your current self showed up to your younger self, what would you say to him or her in that moment? Oh my gosh, like, you know, that starts to just, but that's all imaginative, that's all sort of like this beautiful work and and and good imagination. Um, you know, the the way I think that the the Lord wanted to use that. And so um, gosh, I feel like I could just keep going on and on and just talking about all those things. But um, and here's the thing, right? And I think you you were coming around to this, um, Andrea, and that fantasy isn't random. In fact, I think it's a meaning maker, it helps to make sense or meaning of some of the things maybe that that we don't realize in you know the the unhealthy fantasies, um, and maybe the ways we sometimes romanticize things because of these um these places in our store. So it's a see it as more of a meaning maker instead of just as this random thing that I'm experiencing. And one of my favorite things in coaching is when clients are like, oh my gosh, like I never thought of that. I never realized like it's just this light bulb starts to go off, and they're like, Okay, like now there's something new happening, and that knowledge is in some ways power. You know, I always say, you know, that's like the old commercial when the star, I forget what it was for, but the star shoots across the screen. It was like, the more you know. Um, and it's like it talked about how knowledge is power, and it's so true in our stories. When when we become more aware of some of these pain points and places in our story, it they don't hold as much weight as they once did, including the shame. And we know that shame is a driver. So if we can bring kindness and compassion where we were carrying shame for something that happened to us, we've just taken power away from shame. Absolutely, and there's so and there's so like that is breakthrough, like that is you know, that's not maybe full restoration, but my goodness, like the more that someone can enter into their story like that and experience sort of these hey, why don't you give me that yoke and take mine? You know, Jesus says, My yoke is easy, my burden is light. I'd rather carry that than these, you know, heavy ones that you know might even seem like they're attached to a pillar and I can't even go anywhere.

SPEAKER_02 25:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:59

Um, right? Like I just keep doing the same thing over and over, and this isn't working, and that's not working. Well, have you tried unpacking your story? You know, have you have you tried bringing some of those revelations, you know, to God? And again, something we do um in coaching.

SPEAKER_01 26:15

So well, I I feel like let's be really clear and obliterate this myth instead of a pillar. Let's obliterate the myth that imagination's bad.

SPEAKER_02 26:26

Oh yeah.

Escape, Grief, And Discernment

SPEAKER_01 26:27

And that um our visions are uh uh those yearnings are bad. Um because you have fantasy and fantasy leads you to A, B, or C, right? So let's bust that out and instead consider imagination as good, as inspired. Um, so getting to the source of what inspired it so that you can understand how the Lord wants to inspire you differently, um is very intimate. That that flips the script on on the weight of it. Um, the meaning maker, there is meaning behind your fantasy. Um so meet the need. Like, oh, hello, safety. I didn't know that I'd been missing you all this time. Um, I need you, I need you badly, and I don't have it in my in my body. So um that is really important.

SPEAKER_00 27:28

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's trying to reveal things to us that we don't realize in the moment. So maybe we don't have the language for that, right? Like you're saying, maybe unmet attachment needs, like you said, you know, a desire for safety or a desire to be, you know, to feel delight or delighted in or to to be chosen, you know. Um fantasy by sin, uh, or sorry, fantasy is not a sin by default. Um, just like when we have, you know, sort of, you know, yeah, those like tempting thoughts, like we haven't acted out on a temptation, um, that we haven't sinned. Um, there's something about the action and and sort of uh, you know, I think what what you know what we you know do like do with that, or you know, and I'm not saying, you know, like in fantasy, some of this work, right? Like if you uh you know, Dan Drake talks about some different levels of fantasy in some of the disclosure work that we do, we you know, sometimes with with couples, and you know, the the fleeting fantasy that you know the thought comes and goes, or you know, I'm at a park and I see someone walk by, but I'm not staring them down, or you know, look going for that second glance. Like I haven't I haven't done anything. I'm like, you know, I'm an observing creature, right? Like um, as part of you know, imagination. But when we can take those things even in our minds, and you know, when I do take that second glance or I do linger, you know, and I'll let that kind of run, that's where I think some of those lines get crossed. But that sort of initial, like, you know, uh thought or feeling again, I come back to what is that, what is the signal? You know, it's you know, it's not a sin by default, it's a signal. So what is that signal? Um, it might be uh, you know, when uh when you need connection, um, or when you're feeling vulnerable. And so we want to avoid you know being vulnerable. And so, you know, maybe that's you know where that comes in, you know, in a in a way that's not healthy. Uh and over time that can that can form us. That can, you know, when we have these repeated fantasies, it trains our nervous system towards instant gratification, towards control without cost and uh intimacy without risk. Um, because it intimacy involves so much risk, you know. Like what if I put myself out here, you know, and you know, even in marriage, right? Like, you know, I'm I'm gonna be vulnerable and you know, try to um, you know, have this you know deep conversation with you know my wife and uh or vice versa, right? There and then time, maybe there's not enough time, or there's not so you don't know, right? And and all of a sudden, so these are vulnerable moves um that we might that you know that we take towards somebody. Um, but like you know, in that unhealthy fantasy, you know, it it trains us that you know what, like we can get these things instantly. We don't have to actually open ourselves up, but we're not actually experiencing true intimacy, right? These are false versions of these other areas.

SPEAKER_01 31:05

Yeah, and just like um we get our creativity from our father, our heavenly father, we also get our relationality from our heavenly father. He was created in community, or he is community, and he created us for community. And so we need um we need the risk, we need the vulnerability, we need human contact, the gaze of another person. Um, I need it, you need it, we all need it. Um, and so fantasy is so isolating, like you're saying, it is intimacy without risk. It's so, it's so inner, it's so isolating, um, it's so intimately independent that it it feels so contradictory to let somebody else in. And yet that's the remedy where a coach comes in to reflect those signals of like, oh, I wonder what that's pointing to. I wonder where you've seen that before, and that wandering side by side with another human, um, under the gaze of a God who really just desires freedom and delight for you is um it makes all the difference.

SPEAKER_00 32:16

Yeah, let's talk about, let's unpack that just a little bit more, talking about you know, when fantasy becomes escape. So, you know, fantasy often feels right because it's it's soothing something, and one of the that's one of the things we want to feel, right? Is soothed. Um, and so fantasy can soothe pain, but not necessarily in a good way. It it does bring relief, it quiets anxiety, um, you know, can offer control, but fantasy uh can also help us avoid grief, it can help us bypass conflict, it can help us deny limits, and in some ways, even sort of hollow us out. Again, thinking of that pillar, right? A hollow pillar isn't going to be very supportive, right? Um, and so these escapes always cost more than the promise, not immediately, but over time, right? And so, Andrea, how can someone begin to discern when fantasy is pointing toward a longing versus when it becomes an escape?

SPEAKER_01 33:26

That's more of those questions. Um, I think of um where are you and who told you that? Those basic fundamental questions from the beginning of time uh that God invites Adam and Eve to answer. Um, and so when we consider those questions, like where am I? Am I escaping? Am I avoiding? Am I denying? Um it becomes abundantly clear when you sit with it just long enough. That's that's part of this invitation, I think, through this conversation is that just to sit and consider. I wonder what it would look like to reach out for a coaching session and say, gosh, I heard this really infuriating conversation between Erin and Andrea, and I I think I want to give it a shot. I wonder where my fantasy comes from. And I need help understanding whether this signal is pointing towards me escaping or leaning into something that I actually need. Um and I think that's where it comes from, is those questions. Um and even just that language of are you denying grief, are you avoiding pain? Um that becomes escape. Um but if you're looking for, if you're anticipating it's very different language that will lead you towards something that you are hoping to fill the gap instead of just escape. Does that make sense?

Romance, Power, And Rescue Narratives

SPEAKER_00 35:11

Yeah, absolutely. Um again, just image you can get lots of images from me. Um, and I know we've this has come up on the podcast before, but this is the perfect area, you know, when we talk about you know the Hosea 1012, like the breaking up your fallow ground. If you want to plant this beautiful garden, you can't do it if it's all you know rocky and there's not good nutrients in the soil and things like that. Like you often add uh all of these, you know, plant food things and just these really you know healthy things are gonna help that, you know, to give that the environment that it's going to need to thrive and not just survive. So we don't want to just, you know, don't will, don't wither, you know, you want it to just, you know, to bloom and to be bright and beautiful and and all these things. And that requires removing some of these things that may be in the ground of our lives, right? The soil of our lives that are getting in the way from that really good growth, the way that God meant it. Um and and that's how I often think about you know this um, you know, in the lives of clients, you know, um, and helping them to face and not flee and and to sit with and unpack and go back, you know, to their maybe some of these different you know points, you know, in time. Where did you where did you first hear that? You know, where when did you first feel rejection? When did you, you know, those questions, like you said, I think are so poignant. Um because those memories are, you know, often either big T or little T traumas. And you know, our bodies keep the score. So it's not hard to remember. Hey, when's the first time? Oh yeah, man, there's this experience. Yeah. And you know, and it's like, oh, you can see it on their face, you know, you can see it in their, you can hear it in their in their tone often, their voice, you know, it's sort of in some ways reliving that. And that's why it's so important to do this work again with somebody else who sees you, who can support you, who can walk with you through those things so that you can face, you know, and confront and um and name so that you can experience some integrated healing in that way. Let's shift gears. I'm gonna talk a little bit about so we talked a lot about fantasy, but we haven't really gotten into sort of where romance might come in um with some of this. Um, and so I want to talk just you know a little bit about romance, attachment, uh, and disillusionment. Um, so romance fantasies uh often form, you know, before we have the language for them. And again, I think a lot of the fantasies do, just because you know, we're not maybe totally sure what's going on with probably one of these four S's that we talked about earlier. Um they're shaped by early attachment experiences, maybe moments of affirmation, or perhaps absence, maybe even stories that we absorb over time from media, family, or even church. Um, and I think romance can also be distorted when it's driven by um you know, rescue narratives, you complete me. Um, or you know, I'm I you know, I need you, you know, you know, to for this, right? Like you're my knight in shining armor or whatever it might be. Um, and again, so those things, you know, at their core, those desires aren't bad, but uh when it enters sort of into that maybe rescue narrative, um, it might not, you know, be the healthiest, you know, intensity over consistency or maybe even idealization over actually knowing someone. Um, what are some of the things that you see, Andrea, when you know it comes to sort of fantasy and and romance?

SPEAKER_01 39:15

Um right away it's the power dynamic that comes into play a lot, specifically for for women and for you know, just experience with clients. It's just um where does the power lie? Um, and that that begins the story. That begins the and then the intensity for sure. The rescue, oh my goodness. The rescue is a is a common storyline. Um what I want to say as a because I everything we're saying is we're talking about it pretty, I think pretty casually, you know, and it's not a casual conversation for for sure. So anybody listening, I feel like we need like a temperature check for them to make sure that they're okay. Um, that as they're hearing these questions that we're putting out, we might be poking on some stuff for them. And so um, any listeners as as you're taking this in and either hitting pause to write things down or sitting here like stop being in my brain. Um, you know, I I invite the Holy Spirit now just for you to um that you would take in a deep breath and that you would hold it for a moment and then just release it and honor what your body is feeling and honor the swirling in your brain. Um that that that's saying something, there's a signal there, um, and there's meaning to be found. So so keep going. So don't don't be afraid of that. This is this is encouragement to keep going, keep doing it. Um, because the the beautiful thing about attachment, even though I've described it, yes, as pillars and you're like the roof, and these are big and concrete things. The thing about attachment that is really encouraging also is that it's not just when you're a little that it it's formed and that's it. It's wound-to-tune. You can you can keep working through your attachment. So isn't that glorious? Like you can do work on not on fixing the being seen and soothed and safe and secure, and what that means for you, and what that means in power in your life and that dynamic, what it means for your need to be rescued and where it came from and why you you need it, and how you're getting rescued, and understanding it differently, that is all um able to change and grow and build. Um, so that's that's an encouragement that I just want to make sure we are clear on because attachments feels very done, right? It's not like immovable. Um the going back to the question about the romance, it's definitely power dynamic and um rescue is the ideas that come in. And we binge those, that one channel. We binge that channel, and there's sweatshirts and there's coffee mugs, and let's just sit around all winter and take in this. It's a basic equation. It's he meets her, he's from the country, she's from the city, they meet. Wow, what it worked out, you know, but it's it's um binge worthy. Um why?

SPEAKER_00 42:46

Yeah, oh that's that's such a good question. And and I think I mean, gosh, 98% probably of like the movies and media out there, like all have like these different components weaved within the storyline, right? Like the you know, that relationship, or you know, does the guy get the girl, does the girl get the guy, like you know, um, all of these different places, right? And we are so drawn to that. How's this gonna unfold? What's gonna happen? Like, you know, I I know this part of their story because of you know, this earlier part of the movie, and how's that gonna work? You know, all these different things are going on inside of us, right? And yet at the same time, you know, it's it's hitting places, you know, within us, and we don't even probably realize it. Like, why, you know, you know, why do I want this to happen so badly, you know, for this person in this show, you know? Um, yeah, even places like that to really step back, like, why do I care about like this? And this is a show. Like, why do I want that to happen? Like, why, like, what is that? Is there a message there for me? Again, taking that to the Lord, Lord, Lord, what do you want me to see about this thing that seems so wrapped up in a someone else's story that's really hitting mine?

SPEAKER_01 44:10

Um sit with it.

SPEAKER_00 44:14

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, what it what is healthy romance look like, Andrea? Like without the maybe without the you know, the fantasy, and I would say more of that sort of maybe unhealthy, you know, fantasy. The um and for guys, it could be like the savior complex, right? Like I'm gonna, I'm gonna be that night in shining armor or whatever, you know. Um but yeah, what is what would you say healthy um romance looks like um without you know some. Of these other things we've we've talked about.

Healthy Yearning And Real Connection

SPEAKER_01 44:53

Um, it's funny because uh a conversation that I had with somebody earlier, she said, um, and she's like she's early 20s, and she said, Um, you know, I just feel like we all need to bring yearning back. Like where you walk in a room and your eyes lock with somebody, and you have a conversation and it it you know flops. And then maybe you go to the gym and you run into somebody. It's so real life, it's so risky, it's so um connective, and then uh taking in for yourself, this is how I feel when I'm with her or him, and vice versa, and then and and absorbing that data and collecting it and learning about the person and its time and its questions and its experiences. Um it's being human with another human. Um, and that is so so how we're made. And I think of like dating apps now and um just how like walking in the room and and hanging out with people, uh, getting to know one another, conversation, experience. I've said it all already. It just it goes back to that time and time again.

SPEAKER_02 46:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:17

Yeah, I'm just taking that in. Um, you know, that yearning. Um I even I recently saw um Hamilton on Broadway, uh, which was awesome, thanks to my wife. A birthday gift. It was it was amazing. Um when you talk about that yearning, it's like I've just I picture that moment um you know where Hamilton you know locks eyes um you know with one of the Skylar sisters, right? And it's like their whole like world kind of stops. Um and and there is something really beautiful, you know, uh about that. Um and yeah, so anyway, just the yearning, that's just um you know, that's even like a personally, you know, I think there can even be it makes me think of longing for something better, right? Long the longing for something real, like you know, a lot of times what we're talking about in these things that the fantasy and the you know the unhealthy ways we might romanticize things, um, it's not real. Um, we're looking for something better than what we've experienced or what we are experiencing, and that's why it's so alluring and so appealing. Um, and I think why we can get so lost in someone else's story on a show, you know, because you know, that's maybe what what I long for. That's what I wish my marriage was like. You know, that's the way I wish, you know, even my kids treated me, you know, or whatever it might be, right? We have these like beautiful longings of, you know, gosh, you know, I wish it was like that. And and the reality is it's you know, most often not. And so that yearning, I think, even just you know, is sort of a cry for even the longing for something better and real.

SPEAKER_01 48:21

Um and we need to be super excited, yeah. And so do our listeners, because we are a ministry who works with men, women, and children to be able to learn and live their good, holy, beautiful God's good, holy, and beautiful design for sexuality. And we work with men and women who are trying to um move away from sexual addiction, and yet we're here talking about the beauty of love, is that it involves yearning. That that because you're saying goodbye to your sexual addiction means you're saying hello to your true yearning, that longing is good, that desire is good, that it is part of our design. When you quit porn masturbation, fantasy, these addictions, you're you're stepping into your truest desire. You you are stepping into understanding what truly makes your heart yearn. And that is a gift. We're saying it as a positive because it is a gift, and so to understand it that way is part of the goal of working through these addictions, is part of the goal of connecting your struggle to your story and your story to God, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:31

Yeah, absolutely, and uh yeah, and that yeah, so listeners, um, if if that appeals to you, um gosh, we've got a whole team of coaches and groups that we do and and all kinds of things that really speak into that, um, that can walk with you, uh, and you can walk with others in a group, even in a way that brings that safety and support and the vulnerability, and you can experience that with others. So if we know in the work that we do, that most often our wounds and traumas happen in community. We also know equally true is that the greatest healing we experience also comes through community.

SPEAKER_02 50:21

Yes, amen.

Community Heals What Community Hurt

Intensives And Next Steps

SPEAKER_00 50:22

Um, and so you know, getting plugged in, you know, to um, you know, place, you know, maybe at church or you know, in a in a group, you know, led by a regen coach or some place where you can experience that vulnerability and that safety, that security, like the you know, those four pillars like create sort of this beautiful platform for you to step up on with others um and experience that in a healthy way. And so um, so much more we could say on you know, desire and all these other things. But one of the questions I want to leave you with, uh listeners, um is that um, you know, how how is your desire being formed? We are always being formed in all areas of our lives, um, and desire is no different. So how is your desire being formed? Is it by fear? Is it fantasy? Is it past pain? Or is it being slowly reformed in the presence of God, trusted others, and reality instead of disillusionment? And that's what we just talked about, um you know, with our groups and different things, um encouragement to to lean in, to be with others, to take that vulnerable step. And one way you can do that, if you're a guy listening, we have an unwanted intensive coming up in April, starts in April, on April 7th, that runs from 1 to 3 p.m. It's eight weeks long, and this is a perfect way for you to do some of this work that we talked about in this episode, to go back, to look at that younger self, to identify some places in your story that you might not be aware of right now that have been places of wounding and making connections, making those connections to why do you have these types of fantasies? Well, where did some of these things first happen for you? And we're gonna enter into that and do some story work in that unwanted intensive, which will be you we'll be using Jay Stringer's uh work, Unwanted, uh, as sort of our frame. But we're gonna do a lot of story work and a lot of listening to other men share their stories as we also share our own story for the places that the Lord might want to speak into that we're not quite aware of. So just a gentle encouragement for you to enter into that. And Andrea, I know the women have something pretty similar as well. Can you speak to that?

SPEAKER_01 53:18

So I'm very excited because I love story. Um, I love story work. And we have an intensive for women in April called Healing Through Story. And Kyle, another one uh female coach and I will be leading that group starting in April also. And um gosh. To even consider that you have a story and then to flip back some of the pages to understand where you've come from, um, and so that you can understand your now and your today and move forward differently uh with the author of your life God beside you, and um, to learn how to be a good listener, how to be a good reflector, uh, a good question asker, uh, a good answerer. All of these things are part of uh the intensive. So I'm super excited about that. So that will be on the website and we will begin in April. So we hope to see you there.

Final Invitations And Prayer

SPEAKER_00 54:10

Yeah, yeah, me too. And we'll throw that in the show notes so that you guys can capture that there. And just one final word as we close. Here's what I really hope that you carry with you today that your longings are not random. Your imagination is not a liability. Your desire is not evidence that something is wrong with you. These are invitations, friends. Invitations to listen more carefully, to tell the truth about your story, and to notice how you've learned to reach for connection, safety, and delight. Fantasy becomes dangerous when it replaces real relationship, but it becomes redemptive when it leads us back to ourselves, to others, and ultimately to God, our creator. Wholeness doesn't come from shutting desire down, it comes from letting it be formed in the light through honesty, community, and grace. So instead of asking, how do I get rid of this? try asking, what is this longing pointing me toward? And that question can change everything. Andrea, would you close us out in prayer?

SPEAKER_01 55:22

Yeah, that was beautiful. Um Heavenly Father, our creative and powerful God, uh, thank you. Thank you for each of the men and women listening to this podcast. I pray that you bless their ears, that you bless their minds, that you settle their bodies as they sit with some of these questions. God, you created us for vision. You created us for imagination, you created us for dreams. I pray that each of these men and women know that they are a dream on your heart. And that for those of us who need to be seen, God says, I see you. For those of us who never got soothed, God says, I've got you. For those of us who feel a lack of safety, God says, I've got this. And for those of us praying for security, know that your heavenly father is holding you, is loving you, is seeing you, is hearing you, and is wanting to usher you into new dreams, new imagination, truest desires, and a life in living color. God bless us all. Amen.