She caught me looking: When a Walk in the Park Is No Walk in the Park

A head turn in the park. A glance across the sanctuary. For many couples healing after infidelity, pornography, or sexual addiction, those tiny moments can feel bigger than the whole week of progress. We sit down with coaches Aaron Tagert and Anne Donahue to slow the moment down and name what’s really happening: betrayal trauma in her body, shame and helplessness in him, and the split-second choice between defensiveness and connection. 

We talk about why “I wasn’t looking” usually backfires, even when it’s true, and how a betrayed spouse can experience that as being left again. Then we get practical. Aaron and Anne share simple tools for nervous system regulation, taking a pause, and moving toward your spouse with empathy. We also unpack a framework called SAVES: see, ask, validate, empathize, and provide security through your presence and your actions. 

Lastly, we tackle what “realistic” healing looks like for couples in recovery. Noticing is part of being human, but seeking and fixating are different, and intent matters. We discuss the distinction between fleeting intrusive thoughts and fixating fantasy, plus guidance on getting outside support without turning it into spouse-bashing. If you want a marriage marked by honesty, tenderness, and real repair, press play, then subscribe, share with a friend who needs it, and leave a review so more couples can find the conversation.

Free Resources to help you on your journey to Becoming Whole:

👉Men's Overcoming Lust & Temptation Devotional
👉Women 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Women overcoming unwanted sexual Behavior)
👉Compass 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Wives who are or have been impacted by partner betrayal)

Transcript

Welcome And The Park Scenario

Josh 0:18

Hey, welcome back listeners to the coming whole. We are, um, I'm, I'm joined today in the studio, in the studio in our Zoom studio, uh, by Aaron Tagert and Donahue. Uh, I invited Aaron and Anne to talk to me today because they do a lot of work with couples in recovery. So we're a husband or wife has been unfaithful. Sexually, romantically with somebody else and, uh, but are trying to restore their marriage. And so they've been in, in deep, deep waters with a lot of couples and continue to do so. And I had a question that I've talked to clients with over the years and couples over the years, but I really wanted to hear from them about it. So here's, here's the topic of the day. Topic of the day is the typical scenario. A couple in recovery. Let's say the husband has been unfaithful or he's, the wife's discovered, he's looking at pornography, or he's had extramarital affairs and he's trying to do better. He's growing in this regard. They're trying to restore their marriage and they're out together. They're walking in the park and, uh, a young woman jogs by and the husband turns his head and looks to the young woman and the wife is. Angry. How dare you. She wants to be done with the, the date. Let's go home. You're doing the same old thing again. Um, and the husband is feeling like, wait, I'll, I, I just, I thought I recognized her, or something like that. And they're in and they're out. What do they do in that moment? Or another scenario would be husband and wife. Were at church. And, uh, they're in, you know, maybe the two thirds of the way back in the pews and during worship. And the husband is just there and, and he feels like he's just looking around the sanctuary innocently, but his wife feels like, no, you're checking other women out, or, I saw you lingered long looking at that person in the third row, or something like that. Um, so we just wanted to get into that. I just wanted to get into that with you guys. Uh, so let me just kick this question to you, general question. What's going on for, uh, as you hear me say, kind of give that scenario what's happening for a husband, what's happening for a wife, or what are some things that could be happening for each of them from your experience having walked with couples in, in recovery. So Aaron, maybe let me start with you. Like what's happening for a husband in that situation, or what are some things that might be happening for him in that moment?

Aaron 2:42

Yeah. Um. Uh, I don't know if he would recognize that or not, but I mean, there, the, the wife is extremely triggered. Um, and depending on, again, maybe where they're at in walking that out, um, and recovery and, and things like that, you know, I mean, automatically shame and different things can just kind of really come to the top of the surface. And so defensive, like, you know, like I wasn't looking, you know, and you could just get super defensive, which isn't helpful. Um, but you, you know, you, you, you consciously weren't trying to do anything. Uh. Wrong, and maybe you've even grown so much, you know, like maybe before, yeah, you guys would go out and you would just turn and look and, you know, and those types of things, like, but more in a seeking kind of way than maybe noticing or it happening. Um, and you, and you notice, and so I could see, um, very clearly how, you know, the, the spouse, the wife would be triggered in that situation. So, um. Yeah. And then just feelings like, oh my God, like, what am I supposed to do? Like, I, like, I wasn't, I didn't feel like I was doing anything. Like, so Jake can just unravel very quickly. Um, yeah.

Why Betrayal Triggers Hit So Hard

Josh 4:10

Yeah. Okay. All right. So Ian, uh, Aaron's Aaron sets you up here, you, he says she's extremely triggered. First of all, for anybody listening who doesn't know what that means, or maybe kind of, I have a general sense of what that mean means, what else would you add to that? What's happening for a wife? So let's go back to the park. The scenario I gave at the park,

Anne 4:28

I, I was gonna go back to the park. Um, at first I thought, ow, ouch. You know, she's so, you know, glad that they've made it out together. You know, maybe things have been really rocky for a long time and now they're out together at a park, you know, walking a loop or something. And so she's. She's nervous anyway, but she's thankful it's the two of'em. And then, you know, he turns around and looks at somebody else and just that sinking feeling. Um, I'm not enough. And here we are. We're back at this again and I'll never be enough. Uh, did you have to turn around? Um. And so just a sinking feeling and then triggered, right? If this is something that was common, glancing looking, you know, even like barely, you know, you can tell when somebody's looking at somebody, um, you know, it's probably just a, a, a memory and I wanna go home. I don't feel safe. Like, darn it, like now this walk this time together, just you and me is, is, is ruined and I'm scared. And, uh, um, yeah.

Josh 5:54

Yeah. So Anne, when you say, uh, like the, the, you talk about the memory, you talk about fear and that word triggered, you're, you're talking about, you guys are both talking about for her and so Anne, let me just kick it back to you. She's having like a. There's a, some kind of neurochemical response happening. It's not, this isn't just her kind of formulating thoughts and making her mind up about something. You're talking about like her, like almost like to her physiological muscle memory is, is going back to before they were in recovery and, and whether she likes it or not, she's not, she does not feel safe. Is that what you're saying?

Anne 6:31

Yeah. She's, she's not feeling safe. So like the. You know, the response could be either she got super quiet and numb and kind of like checked out. Um, or she started to get, you know, mad and like, I mean, I've seen couples at parks yelling at each other, you know, like, you know, and yelling at'em and that that trigger response is not her fault. And she. You know, it's either numb, shut down, checked out, or angry, frustrated, talking fast. And those are those trauma responses that have been really helpful to help a, a partner like, and a spouse notice and tune into.

Josh 7:21

So, so you're, when you say notice and tune into, like that's, that's where you would want the husband to respond to her in a helpful way.

Anne 7:31

That would be amazing. Yeah. To help. Yeah.

Josh 7:35

Alright, so we've got this. So if I'm hearing you both correctly, and I, it makes sense to me on the one hand, and maybe we should have started in with with that question for you, but she's, he's had this, for whatever reason, he just turned his head or he's looking around whatever, and we haven't ascribed motives to him yet. Um, yeah, we haven't even determined whether or not he's, it was a good idea or he needed to. But, but she's, she's caught him seeing somebody else looking towards somebody else, and she's triggered, she's experiencing all these things and, and, and he knows it. Now she's either shutting down, she's getting quiet, she's saying, we need to go home. She's angry, she's anxious. And so Erin, going back to what you said. So now he's feeling ashamed about this. He's feeling embarrassed. Maybe he's feeling helpless. Maybe he's feeling accused. Uh, like I, I I wasn't doing anything. And you're, and after all this time, you're, you, you still see me that old way. I, and here we are having a great time. He's feeling disappointed. Uh, if he recognizes, Anne, what you were just saying, that this isn't her fault, she's being, this is a trauma response. He might be slipping into some shame that's connected to self recrimination. Like, you know, I'm so stu this, you know, I, I did all this. Anything else you'd add to that scenario or any, any other nuances or different scenarios that are like that, that, that would be valuable for our, our listeners to think of? I'm putting you on the spot here. There may not be, but

Anne 9:36

it's just so common.

Josh 9:38

Hmm.

Anne 9:38

And they're not alone. Yeah. I mean, and triggers go on for, you know, years. So it's like catching it like

Josh 9:50

mm-hmm. So, so let me, let me, let me kick this. Aaron, I'm gonna kick this to you.'cause I've heard, I've heard men say this, um, to, to a spouse in that kind of situation. Um, I, I was just looking, or I just noticed that's not wrong. Where is that guy? Right? Where is he wrong? Where does that not matter? Where's the, where's what else is needed? What's, how do you respond to that?

Shame And Defensiveness In Husbands

Aaron 10:29

Yeah, I mean, on the one hand, you know, I, I, I hear and I like, you, like, uh, clients, you know, talking about this type of stuff, you know, all the time gonna, the grocery store, you know, and, you know, it might be difficult for them to go to the grocery store together or something like that. Right? And so, um, I would say, I think where a lot of guys go wrong with this is that they take the, the. Sort of more of the defense approach than the empathetic, like trying to understand where she's coming from and why she's responding the way she's responding. Um, and I don't mean, so I think there's a both and to this, I think like you can in a, in a humble and loving way, like acknowledge that like I, you know, I wasn't doing. You know, anything sort of wrong, but I think when you lead with that. You've probably led with that when you were doing things wrong. And so again, again, it comes back to trying to rewrite some of the old patterns. Uh, and so what would it look like to then instead of take the defensive approach? To initially move towards her in that moment and, and how she's feeling, um, and, and acknowledging that she's triggered and, and helping to sort of unpack that a little bit together instead of ignoring it. Um, and. Maybe even wanting to, it, it's a, it's a difference of focus, like when we're focused on ourselves. Yeah. What are you talking about? I wasn't doing this. You know, and then all of a sudden, like, you're, you're not speaking gently. You're probably not as kind and you're not doing that. Like you're actually reacting now instead of responding. Um, to what she's feeling. Uh, and that gets so easily lost. And so I think you wanna keep that in, in mind is the, that response versus reaction and how quickly that can change. But I think if the, if the husband and sort of f you know, not think about themselves first in that moment, um. I think that whole interaction could be entirely different. Um, so, and that's not easy. I'm not saying it's Oh yeah. Like, you know, this is just, it happens overnight. Like, it, it doesn't happen overnight. It's, you know, there, there are patterns and habits and ways of relating that. Need to be re like reestablished and kind of done differently, just like the personal habits, like maybe are changing for him. He, the, some of those relational habits also need to change and will probably take some time, uh, to do that.

Pause And Respond With Empathy

Josh 13:30

I, I think that's so key. I, I love the gentleness of that response. I also love how you're piggybacking what Anne said with the, his, his response. If it's defensive, is it just, it adds to the trigger. It doesn't help to tend to her being triggered. Even if he didn't used to say, you know, I wasn't looking when he was. The fact that if, especially if she discovered something that was hidden for a long time, she's gonna be hypervigilant. She's gonna be looking at a, as a protective mechanism, just understandable for what she was missing before and his. His, um, reactive defensiveness of like, no, no, I wasn't looking. Even if he, even if it was, you know, before they never had these conversations, it, it's not gonna solve the problem for her because it's gonna go right to that place of like, that's what I used to think, you know? And so, um, but I just saw you. So she, it's, it's either way it's gonna trigger her. Um, Aaron, what, what do you coach a guy? So you talk about, hey, this is a, this is a new way of learning to do this. Any tips or hints for a guy to shift gear? Like, I mean, I'm thinking about conversations with my wife and how easy it can be for me.

Aaron 14:46

Yeah.

Josh 14:47

When she says, you know, Hey, I thought you were gonna take the trash out, and I was, and I just haven't yet. You know, like, to be reactive. Yeah. Like,

Aaron 14:55

yeah.

Josh 14:55

Any, any hints or tips or things that can help a guy? To begin to get a, a, a, a quicker re reflex to respond with thinking about her as opposed to thinking about himself.

The SAVES Tool For Repair

Aaron 15:06

Yeah. I mean, it, it really, it does take some time and, and, and trying to learn. Like I, I've come to learn, like even for myself, like different ways of relating with my wife, like moments when I can take a brief pause before entering into, you know, conversation or, um. Something that might feel a little heated. Um, I'm gonna, I'm gonna show up entirely differently than if I don't take that pause. Um, and so, and what that does is actually, you know, that, you know, our sympathetic nervous system, it just kind of allows that to just calm down just a little bit. Um, I know some people, you know, and my wife and I have done this, you know, if we just need to take a. Take a, a small break, you know, five minute break, come back, you know, just take some breaths, calm down, whatever. Um, but I think it's, it's acknowledging that, uh, which is so key, um, and then learning to, to try to, to imp to implement that. In this case, if you're trying to acknowledge. The trigger and, and move towards her. Um, this really great coach, um, named Ann Donahue one time shared this document with me, um, that she had gotten, um, thanks from, from You're welcome. You're welcome. Uh, from Jake Porter and it's called Making Saves. Um, and so it's an acronym, uh, and it just kind of walks through just like, what, what are you trying to do in that moment? You're trying to see her, you're trying to, you know, you're asking, uh, you know, flat out are, are you feeling this way? Are you triggered? You're validating. You know, I, I totally get why you would be. Why you'd be triggered, you know, by this, it makes a lot of sense, you know, and then you, you're empathizing with her, um, and then you're trying to provide some security for her that, you know, uh, you know, I, you know, and maybe you're not saying, well, I, I wasn't looking, I wasn't looking, but like, just letting her know that you're here with her right now, uh, in the midst of how she's feeling in the midst of this trigger, in the midst of this response. Um. And those actions are greater than, than the words that he could share. Right. If he's, I wasn't looking, I wasn't looking. She's not hearing that. She's, she's seeing the actions. Right. And, and trying to, to kind of decipher between the twos, you know, the, the actions are always, I tell my clients all the time, you know, when it comes to your spouse, your actions will speak louder than words. Ever could in, in Recco in that recovery journey, uh, in your relationship moving forward, your actions mean everything.

Josh 18:01

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. That's really good. Well, and, uh, I like saves a lot. One of the things I'd say about the, the validating piece, I think one of the things that can be helpful, super helpful in the, I I understand what's ha, I understand why you would feel that way. If there can be ownership that ties back to, oh, given about what you've been through or given what I put you through, I can understand that is Yeah, absolutely.

Anne 18:25

Yeah.

Josh 18:25

So it's not like a, I totally get what you're going, you know, like,

Aaron 18:28

yeah. Yeah. No, and I think that's actually, that's actually a very. Important part of it. You know, the validation is, you know, you know, but you're, you know, you're free to feel the way that you wanna feel. No, that's not worth, we're, we're not saying that. We're saying, well, yes, we are saying that, but we're also saying there's an ownership in Oh yeah, there's a reason she's feeling that way. And it has to do with, you know. You know, actions that I have done, um, in the past or the different wounds that I have created. And so I'm validating the way she's feeling in the present as a result of, you know, the sort of the, the, yeah. The consequences of my own actions. So there's so much ownership in, in that validating piece. Yeah, absolutely.

Josh 19:14

And take us in, take us a little bit into the, the wife's perspective in that moment. The difference for her between a husband who says, or a time, let's just say it's the same person. The time that the husband says, honey, I really, it was innocent. I really wasn't checking her out. I really thought it was somebody I knew or, or what, or I was just looking over there at Bob, not at her. Like, what? You know, whatever. It was the difference between that kind of response in that quick, in that moment, uh, that's maybe on the calmer end. The, the more. Heightened end on his reactive part. And his end might be the, the more defensive, like I wasn't doing like raising his voice or whatever, but take us into the, into the difference between that kind of response from a husband to something that's more in lines with saves, whether like he's really walking through this, the acronym or just validating, trying to see her and be with her where she's at.

Anne 20:06

Yeah. It's all, it's. The difference makes all the difference, you know, to her, it's, it's not just, did he turn around and see somebody else? It, oh no, he's in a way, left me again like mm-hmm. You know, like, it's not me. You notice it's not me you're with, it's just that deep fear, right? Of like, somebody else will catch your attention, but I'm with you. And so it's that huge loss of relationship and um, loss of connection. So, for her, yeah, go ahead.

Josh 20:44

Well, so I mean that just, okay. That, that feels like a game changer. Like, because. So the, the reaction of him saying, wait, no, I wasn't, uh, can feel to her like he's, he's still keeping himself away from her. He's, he's in his own world. He's focused on himself, he's after him feeling better, his whatever. And you're, you're saying that that part of it, the reason she's triggered is'cause she's been now, now she's alone here in the congregation. Now she's alone here in the park and he's doing what he used to do. So moving toward her with something like saves, validating, acknowledging, seeing her can help, can help bridge that gap and help her to, to feel connected to him.

Honesty Even When It Was Lust

Anne 21:28

Oh, yeah. If he were to say, um, you know, I, I looked like, and I can see that like, you're, you're angry and you're, you're afraid that, you know. Now I, I am in, you know, I, I, I looked at somebody else and now I, there, there might be a, an interest or a lust or something. And so when he says I looked and, um, I'm sorry that you're quiet now, like, let's, can we talk, can we talk this through? Right? Like, that's that courage. Like it's gonna take courage on his side to say I looked. Or I turned my head, I did turn my head. You're quiet. I really want to, um, you know, acknowledge that and, and I see you.

Josh 22:28

Mm-hmm.

Anne 22:28

And I care about you. Um,

Josh 22:31

yeah, that was gonna be my next question, Ian, was mm-hmm. Because Aaron and I have kind of set the stage, right? Maybe I set the stage with like, he, he really is from his perspective, it was innocent for whatever reason. Uh, and, uh, my next question is like, well, what, but what, and what happens if it's, if it wasn't innocent, what happens if it's the old reflexive turning his head that he had done for the last 20 years and he just did it again to check somebody out or to look lustfully and, and you're saying that. E even when that happens, for him to, to acknowledge that, be honest and seek to, to tune into what's happening for his wife is, is the better route forward.

Anne 23:08

And depending on how, you know, dysregulated she is like, you know, do you wanna go home and, and call a friend? Or What do you need right now? Like, do you wanna keep walking and we just walk in silence for a few minutes. Um, do you wanna go sit down on that? You know, there's a chair. There was a bench, um, and you know, maybe we work through saves together right here, right now. What? Giving her some choice to decide, you know, maybe she doesn't want the whole walk to be over and. And they can, if he is empathetic and is acknowledging and he's keeping with his tone is, is you know, moved from like a, you know, first maybe it was defensive, but now he noticed how shut down she is or she's kind of curled up, you know, just kind of went into her shell like, and he's like, Hey, you're quiet. What do you need? Let's, we can pause like that pause Aaron was talking about is huge. It's really meaningful.

Always Begin Again With Better Bids

Josh 24:16

There's such gentleness in the way that you guys are, are talking about him responding both gentleness on your, on your parts as you, uh, you obviously have experience, compassionate experience walking with men who are trying to do this better. And um, and I love even the gentle noticing of like, he may start off defensive and then recognize. That doesn't mean all is lost, or, oh, oh, I did, I did it wrong again. You know, like, all right, let's just go home. Screw it, we'll do it next time. Like it's, uh, even then he can, he can shift and say, okay, well I was just defensive and that probably didn't help you feel any safer. I, I want to try to do differently here in this moment. Uh, such a growth mindset for, for that, for, for both of them. And in your experience, uh, what would you say? Um. That a wife wants for a husband, wants from her husband a after that. So let's just say like, let's say they've, let's, let's say that she said, I don't know what I need. I'm not sure I want the walk to be over. Let's take five minutes and reassess. Um, obviously she would want ultimately for him to not lust after other women for him. Just have eyes for her. But you kind of, I think, opened up a, a conversation that's been important to, like, as for a husband who's just not there yet. He, he, he does have, let's say a couple decades of training his own brain to sin, and he's, he's in recovery. He is working on it. What, what does a wife want in those from, from him as he's. Not doing this perfectly yet. Is there, is there ground for him to, and I'm not asking for license for him or permission, but if he's like, man, I, I do not seem to be able to get this part together the way that my wife needs right now. And I'm thinking of specifically, I, there was a, a husband and wife, a few husbands and wives I've known over the years who it's almost like they've decided we just don't go anywhere. It's just too hard. Mm-hmm. So I, I think I'm kind of trying to push in there a little bit what are, there are some, there's some things that for a husband who's kind of faltering with some of his, his reflexive noticing that he can do to help his wife without them just kind of living in an igloo somewhere.

Anne 26:53

Yeah. Right. That's that completely realistic. Um, it's probably that posture of, um. Empathy. Like, I'm probably not gonna, you know, say it all perfectly on this walk today, but I wanna get there and I know how badly over time, you know, looking at other women or being on my phone too much has hurt you. Uh, I want to, to, to be, um. On your team and on your side about this and acknowledge like that this, this pain, and maybe you're quiet right now, isn't against me. It's you trying to navigate all that you're feeling like with rejection or. Sad or angry, and I'm gonna, um, you know, I'm gonna just call a buddy about this and just talk to somebody who's further down the road and how can I grow in this and be safer for you and trustworthy. And

Josh 28:11

yeah,

Anne 28:12

know your triggers, you know, know your triggers, spot them and, you know, respond differently. Yeah.

Josh 28:21

It's interesting how they, how both husband and wife are, are having to learn to deal with their variety of triggers. Um, him triggers to, to lost his triggers to be defensive or secretive, or to pull away or push back or triggers when it comes to the, the trauma she's experienced. Try to self protect, to shut down, to pull away. Um,

Anne 28:46

it kind of takes courage on both parts, right? If, if he's. Courageously saying, Hey, I can, I can tell you're, you're quiet and you're, or withdrawing. It's gonna take courage for her to also say, I am. Um, and I need a couple of minutes.

Josh 29:03

Hmm. It's a whole nother way of, of relating. It's not just like, let's get this sexual thing buttoned up so that you're doing it the right way and we're all gonna be better. It's really like how we're gonna learn to relate differently with each other, to see each other differently, to extend grace to each other differently. To own our own stuff differently, um, while also expecting that the other person's gonna be growing as well.

Anne 29:27

Mm-hmm. I like this phrase, always begin again. And if this, you know, particular incidents didn't go great and parts did go good, just notice, notice where you were a little bit different and, um, you know, maybe later, you know. 30, 40 minutes later be like, you know, hey, if that were to happen again, would you ever want me to grab your hand or, you know, put my hand on your shoulder, or, I let you walk ahead for a little bit. You know, what, what, what can I do differently next time? What would help, what would really help you next time if this happens again, or another scenario like this happens again?

Getting Support Without Spouse Bashing

Josh 30:15

Yeah. Yeah. That's great. That's great. You guys have both also talked about how, how, just in this, in this case, and we know this for early recovery from sexual addiction, but how they're both gonna need other people they can talk to. They can't, especially early on, they're not gonna be able to just kind of sort through all this on their own. They're gonna need other people who they can trust to lean into. And Aaron, I was thinking about what you were saying earlier about his, his reactivity. We've heard so many guys over the years say things like, man, I'm working so hard, and it doesn't seem to be even making a difference for her. Um, and then couple that with, in that moment, his objective is gonna be to try to get outside of himself and his feelings to, to empathize with her space or place for him after the fact. Or a rhythm he can introduce to like, invite somebody else into that to say, man, I. I just need to call a brother who maybe understands me and who can empathize with me about just how it's tough. It's tough to wait. It's tough to walk through the hard, the long road of recovery. And if so, what's the difference between that and just griping about his wife or not wanting to change?

Aaron 31:28

Yeah. Well, I mean, I would say first, you know, um. Don't, don't gripe about your spouse. So that's, that's never a, that's never a good thing, even a really trusted like relationship. Right. Like, I think it's, it should be a goal. Um, and I'm not saying you can't talk openly and honestly about things, you know, but you know, your heart intent shouldn't be to kind of throw them under the bus, um, so to speak. It should, it should be to, you know. Share, you know, what's going on for you, what's going on for her. Um, but not in a, not necessarily in a ne, in a negative way that that paints her in a certain light or paints him, you know, in a, in a certain light, you know, vice versa. But

Josh 32:17

yeah.

What Realistic Healing Looks Like

Aaron 32:17

Um, yeah, I mean, a trusted friend I think is super important. I mean. That's where, so poaching like this, ha, this comes up all the time. You know, like there was a, an instance and we worked through that because maybe they weren't able to do that together. Um, maybe they're, in a lot of cases it's because they're so early in recovery. Maybe they don't have the skills yet, or the ability or the sometimes even language to talk about some of these things and realize. Like, yeah, you know what, there is a reality, uh, and I, I share this with guys all the time. You know, I said, if, if, if, you know, if you were out at a park, maybe you're, you have your dog and your dog's out running or whatever, and you're just sitting there observing, you're not seeking. And there is a huge difference between, uh, actively seeking and noticing or observing. Um, and there, there's a heart intent involved in that. Um, you know, there's, uh, you know, di you know, deception like in that, there's all kinds of things that go into that. So, you know, if, if you're going out there because you're like, oh, I'm just gonna sit on a bench, and you're like, no, I, the reason I'm going out here is. For this reason. And one that's deceptive, and two, that's seeking behavior. That's not just, Hey, there's a bench here. My dog's running, I'm gonna let'em off the leash for a little bit, you know, and I observe somebody in the meantime, right? But then it becomes, what do you do with that? Um, and so I think being able to, being able to mention that or, you know, to, to just to unpack that with a friend or, um, you know, in like in coaching or something like that. Just a safe environment where. If, if you're not in places where you and your spouse can have sort of open conversation about that or, um, it, it, you know, if it, even in the empathy that we were talking about, you know, it kind of just feels like maybe you're going in circles with it. Um, you know, just being able to kind of talk about that I think is, is, is really important. And, and again, I hear that all the time, like in the guys, you know, that I, that, that I meet with, you know, um, different. Lots of different examples of that.

Josh 34:32

Yeah. Well that, that raises maybe the last thing we can talk about today. Um, because there, there's kind of this, I maybe a picture of an ideal husband's response when he sees someone that, that fits the, the type of person or the type of situation that in the past has been tempting for him. And then an ideal response from, from a wife who's walking with a husband and who's growing maturity. Uh, and, but I think there are, there are a lot of couples that, both husbands and wives who, who maybe hold up the ideal. And it's, it's actually not realistic. It's not real. Uh, like the, the idea that, you know, you're the spouse is never gonna see. Anyone that they find attractive or that there's, um, or that they're, they're not gonna go out, you know, I mean, tho those, those kinds of things. Or that a wife is never gonna feel a, a question or a check, um, ever, ever again. You know, you're, you're gonna just fully trust your, your husband. What are some of the, the ways that we can, that, that people can frame up, like, like what is, what is realistic? What can a wife expect from a husband? When it comes to how he's stewarding his eyes and, and responding to her, uh, and what's not realistic, what's actually like, yeah, that's, that's maybe a self-protective, um, dream. But if you're married to a human person, it's gonna look a little bit different. Maybe you'll be a little messier. What kinds of things would you, would you guys say to that?

Anne 36:15

That's a, that's a big question. Mm-hmm. I mean, the hope is, um, growing more and more like someone's eyes for with purity. Um, and that's the hope, right? Sobriety and purity. Goodness.

Josh 36:44

So let me,

Anne 36:45

yeah,

Josh 36:45

let me lead you a little bit then a little, because,'cause if you're, if you're working with a, a wife who says, Hey, I, he, he just, I mean, we were out and there were, you know, three people in the park that I could tell he saw, and I just don't think that that's right of him. Are there ways that you would help her break down what she's seeing? What her expectations are. Even maybe questions that could help her to, to, that she could ask or get into that would help her to know what's, what's happening, what not. Well,

Anne 37:21

yeah, I think that's so fair, right? Like we, um, we walk every day in relationship with men and women and we see, we see. We interact with friends and sp friends of spouses. So the fact that somebody sees somebody is gonna happen and it should, it's, um, the, the deep, the deep down feeling though of, um, like. Lingering and, um, gazing that it feels different for a wife. She can feel the difference. Mm-hmm. So, right that. We, both men and women see men at, you know, the park and men are there with their dogs letting their dogs run. And so it's not, it's going to happen, but feeling as though this, that for a wife, that the, the husband, um, when he. See somebody that his intent is not to take from that person and she's trusting more and more that his desire is to like see the woman for a woman and not objectify her. And if that feels as though there's just this good common definition between the two of'em that they talk about it and there's safety there and honesty. Between the two of'em.

Josh 38:57

Yeah. That sounds to you, you're kind of pointing toward a relational solution to it. We're gonna, we're gonna pay attention to the, the reality, the realities. We live in the world we live in, the both the good, the bad, and the ugly. Uh, and we're gonna have an, we're gonna work towards a, an open enough relationship between us that, that. We can talk about our mutual experiences in that moment and what we're going for.

Aaron 39:21

Mm-hmm.

Josh 39:21

As opposed to, you know, the three second rule or, or whatever other kind of like, uh, artificial things. We'd say, well, you know, you looked for two seconds that, that's obviously this or that. Like, Aaron, anything you'd add to that?

Fleeting Versus Fixating On Fantasy

Aaron 39:38

Yeah, I mean, I think like. You know, there is such a difference in the sort of, again, I, I mentioned it earlier, but, you know, just the heart intent. Like, you know, what is behind, what is behind that. And there are, uh, there are things, you know, that, that come to mind uninvited. Uh, and it might not even be visually, you know, it might be, you know, memory of something or an image or. Whatever it might be, you know, an intrusive, we'll call it intrusive. Um, it, it wasn't invited. Um, I didn't go seeking it, but it, it happened whether it was a, a, a memory, whether it was a, a, a person, um, who I observed because they were, they were right in front of me. Now, I, I didn't fix my eyes on that person and just continue to watch them wonk. Um, that would cross from sort of, um, bleeding or sort of these invasive thoughts to now I'm actually taking some control over what's, what's happening. And I think that's what's really important for couples. And I know Anna and I have talked with, uh, so many couples, you know, about this and, and, and, you know, if we're going through a disclosure process and, and, and really, you know, kind of working on even just these different, uh, and, and the, you know, the. The material that we use from Dan Drake and Janice Dale. Um, you know, talking about different levels, uh, of, of fantasy, and that's really what we're sort of talking about here is, uh, is, is fantasy. Um, the fleeting, uh, is that first it's that first phase, it's brief, but these are these un unintrusive, these are these intrusive thoughts, the things that, you know, again, you're not seeking that just sort of like you again, you observe. And these things are halted in a lot of, in a lot of times, in a lot of cases, by recovery tools and, and being able to, you know, like identify, oh, like. What's going on in me right now, or like, why, like, you know, this person caught my attention, like, and I, what am am, am I seeking? Something like ask, starting to just ask yourself some questions, which probably wasn't happening before, right? And so there's some good, you know, progress in, in that sort of journey and in that, in that walk, but where that crosses the line and, and goes into the second phase, which is fixating. So now you've. You've kind of gone from like, oh, uninvited to now I'm sort of entertaining that guest.

Anne 42:06

Hmm.

Aaron 42:07

Um, you know, it's like the same thing where someone shows up to your house and you're like, Hey, sorry, not interested. And the tree's getting cut down, you know, compared to, oh, hey, tell me about the process. And, you know, what does it, how long does it take? And you know, now you're. Now you've sort of entered into, you know, this kind of, in some ways, you know, mutually, like you're, you're entertaining what was once just kinda showing up. Um, and a lot of times. It is for the purpose of arousal. Um, and so that is what, um, they call the fixating on fantasy. Um, and that is the, you know, the fleeting versus the fixating. And I think it's so important to, uh, for couples to sort of just understand like the, the difference between the two. And I think that happens. Over time and with like, like we have talked about today, like with some recovery tools and some progress and things like that doesn't just happen overnight, right? You've got so many different patterns, you know, and, and different ways of trying to, you know, I, I want to change the way, the way we related before was like rooted in some pretty terrible things because of my own. You know, uh, addiction and behaviors and responses and, and I want different responses. I wanna show up differently. Um, you know, and so, you know, how, how am I gonna do that? Well, you've gotta begin, you know, kind of putting some of those things into practice and then doing it again and again until it becomes more of a habit. Um, and a rhythm in, in your life. So it's all about rewriting some of those, you know, patterns and rhythms, both relationally, but also individually, you know, and, and you know, uh, and being able to identify that. So I just think it's really important. Um. To sort of, you know, really identify, sort of differentiate between the two. Um, you know, because the, the simple, I, I say simple, but you know, that observation like, you know, we, we, god's given us eyes to see. That's one of the senses. Like, um, and just think about what, you know, we couldn't see if we didn't have eyes like the mountains. And you know, my favorite is like a lake that's just surrounded by mountains. Um, you know, uh, it just, it moves my heart in such a way. It reminds me of this deep connection of God as creator, and without being able to see. Um, you know, you lose out on so much good. Um, and so there's a difference between seeing and, um, and again, you know, like Anne said, like seeing somebody and taking something from them, um, you know, to serve you, um, and in some different way instead of observing, uh, in more of just that. Kind of creator, beautiful way that God, like just remembering it like he gave me these eyes and not everybody can see. Right. I mean, and so I think this, it's just, IM important to just also kind of come back to that and the beauty of our senses and, and, and, and the enemy would want us to, you know, t would want to thwart. Such a good thing as vision, as sight as being able to observe. Um, you know, he, he can't create that, so what he wants to distort it. Um, he comes into that and tries to ruin, you know, what God intended to be good. Even just through sight.

Final Advice And A Prayer

Josh 45:43

Yeah. Well, what's interesting too about, uh, in the whole scenario that we're talking about today. Is really the invitation for him to, he, his wife really does want him to see both o other, other people, but also, and this is where you started, she wants to him, him to see her, to notice her, to be attuning to what's happening for her in that moment. And so in a lot of ways, the, the reflexive or reactive response from a spouse who's just like, just shut it all down. Uh, it feels like safety, but in the long run, it's, this is exactly what needs to be purified by Jesus, and he needs to practice participating in by, by turning his attention towards his wife and towards the beauty that God, uh, invites him to see, um, in her. So yeah, such important. Waters and such an important conversation. And anything that you would add kind of as we, as we wrap today, that's like if you had, if you had one, one piece of advice and, and Erin, I'll ask you this too, but, uh, we're at time. So you got, you got a sentence or two, like piece of advice either for a husband or for a wife, um, even if it's something you've already said in this podcast, but you're like, yeah, this piece, this one. Or if something you haven't, haven't shared, just welcome me to have kind of a last word each of you on. Um, for a husband and wife. Husband or wife,

Anne 47:10

I think for the husband would be, even if you stumble and even if your words feel wonky and just keep at it. Keep turning back towards her and, um, I want to see you.

Josh 47:27

Mm. That's powerful. Thanks Anne. Aaron, what about you? Find a word for a husband or wife? Mm.

Aaron 47:35

I, well, we're recording this, uh, uh, Monday of the beginning of holy Week, and I can't help but think of Christ dying for us and just a call to kind of die to ourselves in this way, especially for a husband to die to himself and the, and the need or, or want to, to justify or to just kind of paint himself. You know, I was like, I just observed, you know? Um, so just in that way die, you know, to be able to die to yourself, uh, and, um, and take that step, uh, uh, towards empathy, um, you know, for your spouse, um, is such a beautiful and, and hard move. But, um, it's going to, it's, yeah. Um. I wanna say it's gonna do wonders, but it's not, it's not like a magical thing. It's just that movement is so different. Um, and especially the first few times that might even happen, it's gonna catch a spouse by surprise. You know, like, oh, whoa, you weren't, you like, I was not expecting that. Like, you know, and so that's, uh, that's what I would say, you know, just learn to die to self in that way.

Josh 48:48

Yeah. Yeah. I love, I love you that you bring back to Jesus.'cause I think that. I mentioned earlier just my own reactivity sometimes when it comes to stuff that's, you know, relatively, uh, benign or just not finished between husband and wife. And there can be something really beautiful in the moment of, of self denial to know that, uh, we don't deny ourselves because Jesus doesn't care about us. He only cares about our spouse. We, we can deny ourselves because we, we have a savior who sees us. Right where we are. Um, and he does see both the husband and the wife and cares deeply for them goes to the cross for each of them. So you guys are a gem. If you don't know Aaron and Anne and the work they do with, uh, in as coaches with husbands and wives, with single people, uh, with men and women and with couples, um, and you are looking for some support. These two are just stellar coaches. I'm grateful for both of you and grateful for seriously, the, the hard and deep waters you walk with couples. So let me just pray for the couples listening and the individuals listening, and then we'll, we'll wrap. So, Lord, thank you that you, uh, you see us all and not just in, in a general mass, uh, and not just observing from afar, but you see us intimately that you, every woman listening, every woman who's a wife who's been hurt or betrayed, you see every bit of her pain and you enter into it. And for every husband who's, who's trying and faltering, uh, and who feels defensive, you see him and you care deeply about all the parts of him. So we pray that, that you'd help us to open ourselves to be seen by you, and to learn to see one another. Husband's wives, singles, as you do. I'm gonna pray these things in Jesus name. Amen.