6 keys to overcoming with Ken Williams of Changed Movement

A lot of people want to be compassionate and end up quietly rewriting their convictions. We start with a sharp line from Augustine that helps clear the fog: it’s one thing to be wrong about a person, but it’s another thing to call something good that God calls sin. 

From there, we talk honestly about the pain underneath the LGBTQ experience and sexual brokenness, and why love doesn’t avoid that pain by changing the definition of morality. Love goes into the hard places because it cares about what happens next, emotionally, spiritually, and in real life.

I’m joined by Ken Williams, co-founder and co-president of the Change Movement, and he walks us through his recovery journey from compulsive sexual behaviors and leaving behind a gay sexual lifestyle. Ken shares the six words that became his discipleship framework: vulnerability, surrender, relationships, identity, enduring faith, and vision. We unpack why quick fixes like “just date” or “just get married” miss the real issue, and why many struggles are better described as an intimacy disorder, a broken ability to connect with God and people safely.

Ken points to resources that help Christians navigate LGBTQ questions with clarity and compassion, and he closes by praying for surrender and freedom for anyone who feels stuck. Subscribe, share this with a friend who needs hope, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway.

Resources from this Episode:

• Changed Movement Navigating LGBT Resource
• Testimonies of people coming out of LGBT 
• Same Sex Attraction Part 3 with Elizabeth Woning

Join us for the Awaken Retreat, a weekend designed to help men step out of isolation and into deeper honesty, healing, and connection.

October 9th -11th | Early Bird Registration Available More Information & Registration

Free Resources to help you on your journey to Becoming Whole:

👉Men's Overcoming Lust & Temptation Devotional
👉Women 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Women overcoming unwanted sexual Behavior)
👉Compass 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Wives who are or have been impacted by partner betrayal)

Transcript

Augustine And Moral Clarity

James 0:00

St. Augustine tells us that we can be wrong about some things without causing any harm, but what we can't be wrong about as Christians is moral principles. He goes on to say that it's not bad in itself to mistakenly think someone is good when they're actually, you know, committing adultery or other things like that, but it's quite another thing to think that adultery is good. That's a quote from, uh, A Year With the Church Fathers by Mike Aquilina. Um, I'm James Craig, uh, director of projects and spiritual coach here at Regen, and I'm honored to be joined today by Ken Williams, who's the co-founder and co-president of the Change Movement. In fact, we actually had Ken's counterpart, Elizabeth Wanting, on almost a year ago for an episode that will be in the show notes titled Same-Sex Attraction Part 3 with Elizabeth Wanting. Amazing title. Pretty, pretty profound, uh, that we came up with that, but, um, that'll be linked in the description. So Ken, welcome, and, and I'm just curious, does this quote about, um, Augustine or said by Augustine resonate with you at all?

Ken 1:04

Uh, yes, it does because in, in my world, which I, I spend most all of my time focused on helping LGBTQ folks, um, walk a journey closer to Jesus, um, lots of people are changing their s- their Christian beliefs in order to, um, support or align with, you know, hey, it, it is... You know, maybe it's okay to live a gay sexual life. And, um, of course, we're aware of all the pain that's so often underneath LGBT experience and, uh, and temptations and all of that. And so, um, you know, it's, it's always a tragedy when we see that people have changed in their beliefs because we know the pain there, or even the pain- Hmm in their loved one, and now we realize that they've just, um, changed course and are very likely headed much more quickly into a more painful spot and one that God doesn't condone. So, um, I can very much relate.

James 2:07

Ugh. So I hear, like, part of what I think happens when we shift our, our moral view is we're trying to be compassionate. Yeah. So just to give, you know, kind of the benefit of the doubt, we're, we're attempting compassion. We're saying, "This seems

Compassion, Pain, And Consequences

James 2:20

really deeply entrenched. I don't know if they'll... if there's really ever hope that they could get over it," which we're gonna get into. But you're actually saying that the true compassionate response is to go into places of pain, which by the way, most of us wanna avoid in ourselves and others. But to go there recognizing that there's pain for... in all of our stories, I mean, especially any of us with trauma or addiction or other things like that, there's pain- And there is actually more pain to come. I, I found that really interesting that you mentioned that. You're, you're actually recognizing it's not just past pain. We don't want people to keep moving into deeper present pain or future pain.

Ken 2:59

That's right. That's right. Wow. Even, I mean, without getting into all of it, um, there are medical complications. There are emotional- Mm-hmm psychological, um, comorbidities with going down that path. And particularly for men, the, um, the average lifespan of a man who lives a homosexual lifestyle is 20 years less than the typical- Mm-hmm man. So, you know- Mm-hmm there are costs here, and so I know God cares about those, and we care about those as ministers and friends.

James 3:30

You're probably familiar with the, uh, healing prayer tool called Sozo. Um, I think it actually came from, from your church, uh, from Bethel. But what I love about that word is, uh, it's I believe the Greek word for h- for salvation, for healing, for deliverance. It's a packed word, and I think, Ken, we usually just think of salvation in terms of will I go to heaven when I die, which is an important thing. But you're actually saying- We also are inviting people to be saved out of literally shorter lives, like statistically- Yeah, absolutely speaking shorter lives.

Ken 4:04

Yeah.

James 4:05

Yeah.

Ken 4:06

Yeah.

James 4:07

Well, Ken, tell, tell us, if you're willing to get into this, w- what are some of the key elements of your own recovery journey from compulsive sexual behaviors? What did that look like in- Yeah your life? Yeah, get us into that a little bit.

Ken 4:19

Yeah. Well, after I'd been married for eight or 10 years and had been part of a, a weekly men's purity group, um, for probably a couple years, so as I was going to that, that men's

Six Words For Freedom

Ken 4:30

group and would have the opportunity to speak on Monday nights, you know, every six or eight weeks, um, I was passionate and I had things to share, but I was like, I began to really ask the Lord, w- how did you bring me freedom? Because mine happened over 15 or 20 years really. Yeah. Yeah, that journey, I mean, and the journey continues really, but- Yeah,

James 4:50

yeah

Ken 4:51

but how did you, how did I come out of- Mm having sexual attraction for women and end up being married, you know, and having a good sex life and all that? And, um, so I had s- I sought the Lord for, I don't know, a few weeks probably, and one day I was in the shower not thinking about any of that, and I just started having these words come into my mind. And I, uh, you know, I, I jumped out and wrote them down 'cause I tell- could tell the Lord was showing me something, and it was, like, these six key words that, uh, really was how the Lord discipled me. Um- Mm. And so I really have formed all of my teaching on helping men and, and women find freedom and wholeness, um, from that. And so quickly, it's-

James 5:35

Yeah, please

Ken 5:36

vulner- vulnerability.

James 5:37

Mm.

Ken 5:38

You know, if you don't start where you are, I don't think you ever get started. And, uh, and so you, you have to find the safe people in your world, um, that you can be completely vulnerable with and share- Mm-hmm the deepest, darkest stuff, uh, because the Lord loves that, and he comes in and he really starts to bring healing. Uh, I mean- Mm s- uh, when we confess our sins one to another, w- we're healed according to scripture. So that's- Mm the first thing. Um, then surrender is the next one. Mm. Surrendering to his lordship, so many of us have, uh, surrendered maybe enough to, you know, because we, we invite him as savior, but we haven't really surrendered such that he becomes lord of our life. Mm. And, um, you know, when you have- When the only sexual attraction or gratification you've ever had is with someone of the same sex, let's say, or in some kind of a deviant way that doesn't align with scripture, it doesn't have to be a same-sex thing, that's all you've ever experienced, and the Lord is asking you to hand that over That's, them are kind of fighting words, you know? Yeah. It, it's like a lot of resistance because- Mm I may have orgasms associated with that. Like, that, he's asking for a lot. Um- Mm but on the other side of that deep obedience is great breakthrough. So that's the second one. Um, the third one is relationships. I mean-

James 7:06

Mm-hmm

Ken 7:07

relationships wound us, and relationships heal us. And, uh, you know, we are the body of Christ, and so I hear, you know, we, we have been given the mind of Christ, not I have been given the mind of Christ.

James 7:20

Mm. And

Ken 7:20

so I really believe that we need each other in order to really walk out our journeys with God successfully. Yeah. And, and, you know, the, uh, I believe that sexual sin is way more about emotional, a- and relational brokenness than it is about- Yeah anything sexual. So, you know, those- Yeah relationships have to be addressed, restored, redeemed, um- Mm all that kind of thing. And then identity is the fourth one.

James 7:45

Mm-hmm.

Ken 7:46

So understanding my identity in Christ instead of getting my identity from what I did yesterday or what temptation I had this morning, or what kind of- Mm porn I looked at or whatever, what my sexual desires are, none of those things are gonna have as solid an, of an identity as what God has given me or says about me. Mm. And I think we are all simply either men or women, um, and we come fully equipped with masculinity if we're men, and femininity if we are female, and it's just a process of uncovering what that means and what God really has for me, you know? What I- Mm what my unique masculinity looks like. Um, and then- Yeah the last two are enduring faith- You know, uh, a wise man falls seven times but gets back up.

James 8:35

Mm.

Ken 8:36

And, you know, we're supposed to forgive people, you know, 70 times seven times, you know? And so, um, we help each other get back up, and we get right back on our horse and keep riding. Um- Mm and we'll get more and more freedom as we go if we don't give up. The only way we lose is if we quit. Um- Wow And then the last one is vision. So, um, it's not the first thing that the Lord led me to or even the second thing, but at some point along my journey when I'd had enough breakthrough, he started to invite me to believe for more, to, to believe, oh- Mm maybe He does want me to have a spouse. You know? Maybe I could father- Wow children someday. And, and to start to kind of dream with the Lord on, you know, um, what, what does a whole free Ken Williams look like? Um- Wow that's not so self-centered and has started to be more focused on what God is, would, you know, what work God has for me, and how, what it would look like to cover and l- and, and give protection and guidance even, and partnership with- Mm a special woman, uh, that he would give to me as opposed to how do I get my needs met with a woman? Wow. Um, or how do I have something gratifying with a woman? Like, no. No, no. Um, the vision is, how do I serve, uh, this woman that God would give me? So-

James 10:01

Mm

Ken 10:01

that, that's kind of a nutshell of, of, uh, the discipleship process that God's led me to.

James 10:09

Wow, I'm excited to get into a few of these. Um, Ken, let me, let me share the ones that overlap. So I know that a big part of your journey was, uh, leave behind LGBT. Yeah. Um, mine wasn't, uh, in, in that same sense, but let me, let me share the which ones overlap. Number one, vulnerability. Two, surrender. Three, relationships. Four, identity. Five, enduring faith. And six, vision. Like, I, I get that there's gonna be some nuances and differences some, within some of those. Yeah. Um, perhaps, uh, if, if your story's anything like our founder, for example, with identity, there's, there can be a deeper sense of am I really a man, like the masculinity. Is, is there really masculinity- Oh in me? But I'm like, man, I see all six of these things as key markers of, of growth and, uh, for any of us trying to overcome- Yeah, I agree sexual brokenness.

Ken 11:00

Mm-hmm.

James 11:01

Was there a little bit of an order to this? 'Cause you mentioned vision was number six, and it kind of came toward the end of a, of a-

Ken 11:06

Yeah

James 11:07

vision for... Well, I, I heard hope in that, like vision

Vision Without Shortcuts

James 11:10

for a greater hope. But was there- Yeah an order overall to this for you? I

Ken 11:14

mean, I, that's... I, on purpose, like, tried to create my resources such that people pick whichever one God's highlighting for their lives and kind of- Sure deeper dive on that. Yeah. But in general, I felt like that was the process. Um, now I think it, it probably has to do w- with what you mean by vision. Uh- Sure because I think you need a certain amount of vision upfront-

James 11:37

Upfront, yeah

Ken 11:38

going through. Yeah. You know, it's even tr- Have vision that God is here, that He cares, that He's present, that He heals, you know, all that kind of a thing. Um, but, you know, so, uh, the reason I did it that way is so often when you're ministering to somebody in the l- that's in the LGBTQ struggle, um, it's... People don't know exactly how to help with that, and so they'll say, "Well, you know, you just need to date a girl," or, um, "You just need to believe that God is..." And, and it's like, whoa, there's so much brokenness there, and so many wounds have not been addressed yet, and they don't know how to have intimacy with kind of anybody, like platonic- Mm deep connection with anybody. It's a very lonely place that they find themselves in.

James 12:20

Mm-hmm.

Ken 12:20

So to have this vision of, sure, I'm riding off into the sunset with a, a woman, you know, when they have never had a sexual attraction for a woman, that's too- Yeah,

James 12:31

yeah

Ken 12:31

too much pressure. Yeah. They'll look other things to help them along the way before he's probably gonna um-

James 12:38

Yeah

Ken 12:38

let's believe for this, you know?

James 12:41

Well, and we're, we're big here, Ken, on, like, hey, uh- We don't usually say you're single and you're struggling with, like, a porn addiction, and e- even if you're primarily attracted to women, we don't usually say, "Hey, you should get married because all of your porn addiction is gonna be solved in marriage." Yeah,

Ken 12:55

just weird.

James 12:56

It's like-

Ken 12:57

Miraculous

James 12:57

bad idea, yeah.

Ken 12:59

Bad idea.

James 12:59

Not to say that there's no connection. I'm just saying that, like- Sure it's so important to recognize that these struggles, I mean, i- if, if all of us, to some degree, who deal with sexual brokenness, uh, have, uh, uh, you know, let me actually say it this way. We're in the middle of a marriage recovery course called Restored To More. It's a great course that we run from Clinton and Charity M- Munoz, and

Intimacy And God As Father

James 13:20

I, I just was preparing for the lesson on sexual addiction, and he, uh, Clinton really found helpful the language of so much of this is an intimacy disorder. A, a disordered ability to connect. So Ken, tell us a little bit more about that for you. I'm especially curious as it relates to vulnerability, like fear of intimacy in that setting, and relationships, 'cause those feel like places where intimacy's a big deal, and if it's always been sexualized, if it's always been one way, like h- how did that begin to be got at by, by the Lord in your life?

Ken 13:52

Yeah. Oh, such a good question, and the most important q- I mean, like, the Lord showed me probably 10, 12 years ago that i- that intimacy was the problem. Um- Yeah it's an intimacy breakdown or many breakdowns.

James 14:06

Sure.

Ken 14:06

And so, um, you know, starting to really seek the Lord... Well, first, um, what I see happen with the LGBTQ community when some- when God starts knocking on their hearts and they start responding, the first thing that needs to happen, a- anybody I've ever met that had, that has had giant breakthrough, they will talk, they will volunteer to me that they began to know God as Father. That- Y- they, they moved from being afraid of Him because, you know, we all are When we go before the Lord, we are aware of our sin. Yeah. We're aware of how we fall short of Him. And to realize that all this time when they've been living a, you know, in a gay sexual life and, and having this conviction, whether they admit to it or not, that they, that He's the only help that they ha- Like, the only way they're going to find freedom or wholeness is through getting closer to Him. So when they learn- Mm-hmm wait a minute, He says, "You can come boldly before my throne of grace to receive mercy and to find help in time of need," like, that is how I'm going to find freedom, then it's a game changer. Because they realize God wants to give that intimacy in the midst of their struggle. In the midst of a sinful lifestyle, He's saying, "Come, come to me, all you who are, you know, heavy-laden- Mm-hmm and I'm gonna give you rest." Like, you can come and find safety and ministry from the Lord and from the Lord's people. And, um, and so I mean, to me, that's all about If you don't feel safe, you can't have intimacy. Mm-hmm. But God is saying, "I'm safe. Come to me." And, um,

James 15:51

wow,

Ken 15:52

isn't that incredible? I mean-

James 15:54

Well, well, and it's so important too, Ken, because most of us have... Many, many Christians who come to our ministry have a, you know, they believe in the cross, they believe in the finished work of Jesus on the cross, but at a gut level- Mm-hmm I gotta clean myself up before I can come to this guy. I mean- That's the deep belief- That's it for so many of us.

Ken 16:11

Absolutely. I mean, it's almost universal and-

James 16:14

Yeah

Ken 16:14

everywhere. Um, and that, he, now, I mean, this, this could sound scandalous, and you may have, want to cut this out. We'll see. But my mentor told me ba- back in the early days, and he's, he had come out of homosexuality, been married, married for 14 years and all this. And so he said, "Ken," he said, because I met with him weekly. He said, "Ken, go home this weekend and don't look at porn. Don't do any, don't do any sexual sin, okay? Don't do that. But if you do," he said, "Invite the Holy Spirit into it either before, during, or after." Or after, yep. Recommend before. Yeah. Right? But I had to learn to invite God into my mess even if it was while-

James 17:00

Yes

Ken 17:00

I was sinning.

James 17:01

Yes. W- well, can we actually-

Ken 17:03

It sound, sounds terrible, but-

James 17:04

It sounds scandalous, but no, we had, we, um, I remember we had an Awaken leader, uh, one of our, our year-round men's group, he's been with us, he had been with us for years. He used to say, "Take Jesus with you into your sexual sin." Yeah. That is not... Now, if you, if you are h- having certain ears to mishear that, you're hearing like, oh, these people are saying, "Go ahead and sin." No. No. What we're saying is when Jesus is with you, that's what transforms. And He's with you, by the way, a- at least in a sense-

Ken 17:31

Yeah

James 17:31

whether you invite Him or not. And it's like- Sure, yeah are you gonna actually be cognizant, or are you gonna invite Him and His power- Totally His life, His... Yeah.

Ken 17:38

I just made it this bed in the depths of hell, you know, at one point. Mm-hmm. You know, so it's like, hey, God is not intim- I mean, He doesn't like our sin because He knows- Yeah it's wounding us and others, you know. Yeah. And sep- creating some separation as far as my experience of Him. Yeah. But He's not intimidated by it. When we bring our sin to Him or invite Him in, that's the best thing we can do in order to find freedom from it, 'cause otherwise all the striving I did all those years... I mean, I went... I mean, James, I went 12 or 14 years, five years of weekly Christian psychology. I went through two nine-month programs to find freedom from homosexuality. None of it, n- none of it worked because I was trying to do it by self-effort. Oh. I was not inviting the Lord into my sin. I was not learning who He is as Father, as loving Father, and none of it was successful. But when I made that shift- Wow then th- I started to find transformation.

James 18:35

Man, okay, so you're saying so many important things. One is- And you had, you'd gotten this word before w- before we started. You felt like the Lord was reminding you that it's not about... No one, none of us are ever gonna be perfect, but there is hope for wholeness in Jesus. That's right. And part of why I'm bringing that up, Ken, is because, one, it, it, we have to come again face to face with the cross. Do we believe- that everything, all the sin that could ever have separated us from God was dealt with on the cross- Mm-hmm and therefore we can approach God.

Ken 19:06

Mm-hmm.

James 19:07

One, do we believe that? And that connects to your, um, en- enduring faith concept, your fifth kinda key to overcoming. But Ken, you're... I'm also hearing this really, really, really important distinction that I've only heard recently, um, from Dallas Willard, one of my favorite Christian thinkers. Right. That the flesh is not, uh... So many of us have been taught, hey, any time you read the word flesh, assume it means sin or sinful nature. For Willard, the flesh is actually simply life on its own without God- Mm-hmm in this fallen world. Mm-hmm. Now of course, most of the time that, that is gonna be what we call sin or sinful nature. Right. Right. But here's why it's so important. Those years of psychology, those years of recovery programs, those weren't nothing on a physical level. Right. Your brain was grow- your, your brain was healing and your body was changing and, and yet you could do all the psychology in the world and, and for your whole life, you could do all the groups in the world, and if you do it without God, you're not doing what Romans 8 describes as living life in the spirit.

Ken 20:06

Yes.

James 20:06

Is that part of your... Like, it sounds like there was a shift in your story a little bit where you, you were like, "I wanna do it with God. I wanna do it- Yes with my Father in the Spirit." What, what did that look like for you?

Ken 20:16

Absolutely. I mean, that was, that was when finding wholeness became ascertainable. Like, that's, that's- Yeah when I did get hope for, oh wow, uh, I can experience change. Um, I mean, I, I had a physical illness for five years. Mm. Um, I had this gut issue that could never be healed. I tried everything, and this friend of mine said, "Ken, I think God wants to heal

Miracles And The Turning Point

Ken 20:45

you," got together with me, prayed for me. I experienced a miracle in my body. I felt it. Um, I farted for five hours because the Lord was delivering me. What? Uh-huh. It was crazy and entertaining for those around. And, um, and so my takea- so I have no more pain. I can... I, I was allergic to every food except for three. So I mean, I was radically delivered- Wow and healed in a moment, and my takeaway was, oh my gosh, God is good, 'cause I got that illness from drinking five beers in 20 minutes and passing out in my fraternity in college.

James 21:18

Oh, it started at that

Ken 21:19

exact- That's

James 21:19

when it started,

Ken 21:20

yep. What? So I thought, I don't deserve to be healed. I don't even know if I ever asked God to forgive me for that. So- What? the Lord stepped over my sin and forgave me and healed me, though I didn't deserve it, and I thought, oh my gosh, that's proof that God is good. Yeah. And that means if He said that homosexuality is sin, a good God would have a pathway out of it.

James 21:44

Hmm.

Ken 21:45

That He's not diabolical. He's good, and so He wouldn't say... He wouldn't command me to do something that it's impossible for me to do.

James 21:52

Yeah.

Ken 21:53

And so I just went on this journey of, like, trying to figure out who He is and what- What would I, what's possible if I really sell out to Him? If I re- now I've had bad days. I'm not saying I've ne- but I mean, if I sell out and I am surrendered to Him wholeheartedly, what is possible? Mm. Like He's a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

James 22:13

Mm.

Ken 22:14

And so I mean, I just turned my boat that direction and kept going. And I mean, He led me to truth after truth, to, you know, biblical principles, all that. And I mean, eventually I started to receive enough of it that it started to change me.

James 22:33

You know, th- that idea of surrender, uh, it was actually for our founder, Alan Menninger, he, uh, was invited over and over to, uh, uh, I think it was like a Catholic charismatic renewal meeting.

Ken 22:45

Awesome.

James 22:45

And he kind of resisted. He was a nominal Christian at the time, living a secret life of homosexuality with, um, you know, cheating on his wife. He comes to that meeting, and he has this subtle moment of surrender. He didn't fall over. He didn't, uh- Yeah get drenched in his own tears. He just had a subtle but deep surrender, and that began the rest of his journey. Now, certain things were miraculously changed- Sure by that surrender, and there are certain things he had to grow in and work out. He didn't have the benefit that you had of like all those years of the therapy and stuff, which was building- Yeah probably part of you up. But, but he had this amazing encounter with the Lord. And so something you're saying, Ken, about surrender seems so crucial, whether it's the same sex, opposite sex, like- So let me ask you this. Was there, was there a big shift in, like, addictive acting out before you went on this more spiritual side of the journey? Or was it in conjunction or together?

Ken 23:43

Um, I mean, together and throughout. I mean, there were-

James 23:49

Yeah

Ken 23:50

there were some key moments for sure of surrender. If I can tell a quick story.

James 23:55

Yeah.

Ken 23:56

Um, 'cause this is just a- amazing. So my... That, that same mentor I mentioned, um, he was gonna pray for me one night, and he was leading me through just kind of a repeat-after-me prayer. And, um, I was praying along, you know, like a good boy, you know. I'm just- Mm-hmm I'm praying the stuff. And then he s- he gets to one and he says, um, "Okay, now say this, Ken. Just say, 'Father, I surrender, um, I surrender my right to ever be gratified by a man sexually again.'" And I just... You know, there was a disturbance in the force, you know. I just- kinda couldn't pray that. And he's like, "What's going on?" And I said, "I don't know." And he said, "Well, what is it?" And I said, "I don't think I can pray that right now." And he said, "Why?" I said, "I think I just, I need the weekend." And he said, "What?" I, I said, "If I... I'm..." I said, "After, you know," I'm, I'm saying this now, "12 or 14 years, somewhere in there, of pursuing finding freedom, I'm realizing I'm not willing to give up that. I'm, I'm not willing to give it up." And, I mean, I was dumbfounded by myself. Like- Mm I was, couldn't believe that I had sought this so hard, but I wasn't willing to surrender that.

James 25:20

Mm.

Ken 25:21

And, and so I, I, you know, I said, "If I prayed it right now, I wouldn't mean it, and that doesn't seem helpful. So I'm gonna take the weekend." And he said, "Well, you can be in bondage for the weekend if you want to." I mean, he, you know. And, um, I mean, he l- he loved me so deeply I could receive that, you know? And so I went home. Yeah. I really counted the cost. Like, what am I, what am I giving up?

James 25:42

Mm.

Ken 25:43

What... Yeah. Is he m- Am I, am I gonna follow him as Lord, or am I just in this, I'm just seeking him for what's in it for me? And, um- Mm so I came back the next week and, and prayed it, and that was a huge, huge transformation for me. It's a

James 25:57

milestone, it sounds like.

Ken 25:58

Yeah, it was. And I- In this journey had different points of surrender along- Yeah the journey, but that was the catalytic one. And that was, you know-

James 26:05

Mm

Ken 26:05

again, 12 or 14 years into my story, but really at the be- at the beginning of really beginning to be transformed.

James 26:13

Mm. Wow, man. Yeah. So these things, uh, so the, for you, the, uh, maybe more addictive or behavioral compos- compulsive element was pretty- Yeah deeply tied in with the same sex journey and, and all that. Yes. Sounds like.

Ken 26:29

Yeah.

James 26:29

Yeah.

Ken 26:30

It was. Yeah.

James 26:31

Yeah. Well, and, uh, a- as I mentioned, I'm reading our founder's book, Growth Into Manhood, Alan Mediger's book. And-

Ken 26:38

Yep

James 26:38

um, he, he thinks of those three categories as really important. Um, not that they're really completely separate for any of us, but- Yeah identity, desire, um, and behavior. Uh, what, what does he say exactly here? Um, he used a different word. He used attraction instead of desire, but- Yeah but the idea is that when he was trying to make sense of his growth into manhood, when he was trying to make sense of how do I walk with other men, especially men who are dealing with same sex attraction-

Ken 27:09

Mm

James 27:09

a big thing he got after early was identity, 'cause he believed that that was one of the pieces that could be kind of engaged somewhat directly. Um- Yeah for many men, you know, it's like, hey, uh, we, we, if we just get after behavior, we might end up in the kind of white-knuckling, legalistic kind of mindset. Yeah. If we just get after desires, we might say, uh, "Go get married and, and that'll..." You know? Yeah. But as you were talking about, that doesn't quite meet it. So for you, you, you listed identity fourth, and I, I found it really intriguing because you mentioned vulnerability, which was almost like opening the door. Mm-hmm. You mentioned surrender, which was like opening the door to God. Right. Um- Right and then you mentioned relationships, and I'm like- I- i- it intrigues me that from what- Yes we've learned about neuroscience, so much of our identity is, it comes through relationships ultimately.

Ken 28:00

Yes.

James 28:00

Can, do, do you see a connection there in your story between identity and relationships? What did that look like?

Ken 28:05

I did, and matter of fact, I really wrestled with which one of those to put first. Yeah. Identity, relationships. Yeah. Because in some ways they are one in the same or one informs

Identity, Brotherhood, And Healing

Ken 28:15

the other. Yeah. And, um, but I, I kind of was looking at my own life, and I think God so used people to even get me to the deeper place in Him where I am surrendered to Him, where I am seeking Him for identity, that I just find- I just listed it first. Um, and, and like you said, I mean, I, like, I think in many ways practically we are socialized into our identity.

James 28:41

Yeah.

Ken 28:42

So I mean, the way, the ways that I got confused about my identity mm, I think was largely done by, like, socially. You know, it's like when you're picked every day last in gym class, maybe after one of the girls is picked. Mm. Like, that is a gigantic wound to your masculinity. Mm. You know, to... And, and when you're, you're picked on, and when you're bullied and all that by other, uh, boys, you know, or young men, it's like at some point you're like, "Forget you. I, I mean, I'm canceling masculinity and all that because all that I see of it is negative, and I'm never enough." So all that. Mm. So, I mean, those are so intertwined, relationships- Yeah and identity. Yeah. Um, they, they absolutely, uh, are connected together. Um, so I was able to experience a lot of transformation and identity by even, like, the, the words from the Lord that, that a friend would have for me. "Hey, Ken, I've been praying for you," or, "God showed me this about you." And I'm like, "Ah, there's some solidarity coming," you know- Mm to me because of what they shared from God, you know, a- about me or to me. But then also, I had to pursue the Lord on my own and read His Word.

James 30:00

Mm.

Ken 30:01

And I got a lot of identity directly from Him that I don't think He wanted me to get from anybody else.

James 30:06

Yeah, yeah.

Ken 30:07

I mean, both... He, He's done both very, I mean-

James 30:09

Both of those relationships, so, so key. Like-

Ken 30:12

Yes

James 30:12

you need to have the walk with God if you want anything of eternal consequence to happen in, in your person. Yeah. You need to have the community of men where, especially when we've been rejected... You know- Yeah it's interesting, I can't help but think that part of, part of this could be on a gradient of, like, um, some of the shame I remember feeling on the, on the football field, quote-unquote, you know, the blacktop on elementary school playground.

Ken 30:37

Yeah.

James 30:37

Um, like, it was interesting 'cause I actually, this is pretty vivid, I don't remember typically being picked last. But I do remember every time I was picked, I would, uh, you know, go out to catch the ball, I'd hide behind defenders so that they'd never throw it to me- Ah so I'd never make a mistake. Yeah. So there was a little bit of, like, a one foot in, one foot out thing. Like, I don't quite fit with these guys. I can't- Right really live up to their expectations. But what you described is even more severe, where it's like you're not being invited into the community of men where you're meant to be shaped. And actually, for Allen, again, back to the Growth In The Manhood book, um, I haven't gotten all the way through it yet, but one of the things I've heard about him is he advocated for- Men need to find ways to be around other men- Yeah even if it's not the most perfect comfort zone. So he actually chose to play a men's, um, softball league. That was kind of one of his ways of saying, "Okay, I'm gonna find a safe group of men to, to be men around in a way that I'm not that interested in." And that doesn't mean men must be interested in sports. That was just one of his ways of saying- Yeah "I need to find ways to integrate i- among other men."

Ken 31:39

Absolutely. That's... Uh, relationships is a, a big chapter in my book for that re- there's so much to say- Mm about relationships. Um, and, and, uh, yeah, I mean, the Lord definitely told me that, you know? Um, He's like, you know, I mean, how are you gonna understand who you are as a man if you're never around any, you know? How are you... I mean, belonging has a lot to do with just our feeling satiated and, like, meaning in life. And so- Yeah if I'm n- I can't belong if I don't show up. You know, I can't expect those guys to come over and just invite me. Now, sometimes, thank God, that'll happen.

James 32:18

Yeah, yeah.

Ken 32:18

Like, I have to be, I have to trust the Lord enough and people enough to be like, hey, I am not gonna be limited. I, I am going to go risk. I am going to go-

James 32:28

Mm

Ken 32:29

basically by showing up with those men, I'm saying I approve of you. Which part of the problem-

James 32:34

Yeah, yeah

Ken 32:35

like my story, it's like I had canceled them. I was judging all the men-

James 32:38

Yeah

Ken 32:39

as less than, as inappropriate, all that. So I'm having to get over my fences, ask forgiveness for that, let, lay down the judgments, and go over and dare to try to be in the midst of them. And the times I have done that, I've had a few negative experiences, but by and large, they respected me for daring to be part of them, you know? Wow. I found a lot of affirmation in places that I was the most afraid of.

James 33:04

Well, and speaking of enduring faith, right, the next one, the- Yeah, totally number five, it's like you had to keep... Y- y- you had some stumbles, you had some men who weren't actually maybe loving or safe or whatever, a- and you had to keep, you had to keep at it with that kind of resilience. What a word for, for all of us. Like, listeners, whether you're dealing with same-sex attraction or not, any sort of compulsive behavior, any sort of thing that just feels like this giant thing you can't overcome- Mm-hmm these are invitations to enduring faith. And I, I just love how you pointed out faith It's, like, got this, it's like faithfulness. It's not just like this a- 'cause I think for me, faith often feels abstract. Just have faith.

Ken 33:42

Yeah, exactly.

James 33:43

But one of the ways to understand faith is s- faithfulness. Like, being full of faith means to be, or to be faithful means to be, uh, connected and not give up and, and, you know, that type of dynamic. It's a way to see it lived out, uh-

Ken 33:57

Totally. Yeah

James 33:59

living out our faith.

Ken 34:00

If I can drop something in here, 'cause I think it, I think it relates, and also relates to the sur- Yeah the surrender thing. Yeah. But, you know, part of being able to endure f- and be faithful, um, is, uh, I obey God

Guarding Your Mind For Endurance

Ken 34:15

on what, how I spend my time, what I put before myself, what, what situations I put myself in and things like that. And I just have to read this quote from, um, Jo- from... So this is actually from John Wesley's mother. So- Hmm you know, the-

James 34:29

Susanna or something? Susan?

Ken 34:30

Um, I don't remember. I don't even know what her name is. Okay.

James 34:33

Yeah.

Ken 34:33

But, but, you know, he was an 18th century theologian and evangelist and- Mm-hmm founder of, I think, what, Methodism, the Methodist Church. Mm-hmm.

James 34:40

Yeah.

Ken 34:40

And so, uh, so this says, um, he in this letter to his mother asks her to define sin. And we, we... You mentioned this earlier, but it says, "What he received was one of the most profound responses I have ever heard." Says, "Take this rule," she, uh, yeah, "Take this rule," she wrote to him, "Whatever weakens your reason, impairs the tenderness of your conscience, obscures your sense of God, or takes off your relish of spiritual things, that thing is sin to you however innocent it may be in itself."

James 35:15

Whoa.

Ken 35:16

Right? So- There are the obvious things. You know, I stay away from porn. I, I don't objectify other people, whatever. But I think part of being able to endure is I am, I am carrying the Lord's presence and awareness of him, that the Holy Spirit is in me. I'm, I'm walking aware of that daily. And when he says... You know what I mean? For me, he's like, "Get rid of all of your non-Christian," um, you know, back then, "CDs," you know? Mm-hmm. Um, "Cancel your ca-" But, but, you know, now it's Netflix, but it was cable back then. Mm-hmm. Um, s- you know, "Don't go to any, um, PG or R-rated movies," because I couldn't... I, that, those things were taking my relish off of spiritual things. They... It, I don't think any of them, of themselves, were necessarily sin, but I didn't have faith enough to live in that. Doing those things took me away from that connection with him or at least my awareness of it. And so- Wow I, I had to give those up for a season.

James 36:25

Yeah.

Ken 36:25

Um, and man, that made it so much easier for me to really walk more faithfully with the Lord, 'cause I wasn't constantly giving myself temptations I wasn't ready for, or-

James 36:37

Yeah

Ken 36:38

I, my, my thoughts were more trained on him because I wasn't vegging out. I wasn't numbing out with my, mm, phone or the newspaper or-

James 36:48

Right

Ken 36:49

watching the TV show.

James 36:50

Well, it sounds a lot like, this is, uh, the, John's, John We- Wesley's mother, her quote sounds a lot like the opposite of what Paul s- like, opposite in that it makes sense because Paul says, uh, the pur- In 1 Timothy 1:5, "The purpose of my instruction is that believers be filled with love, which comes from a pure heart, clear conscience, and genuine faith." So her wisdom in the way she's describing sin to her son John sounds like an application of, like, everything Paul was about in some ways was love, a- and those were three ways that he grew, helped grow love. Uh-huh. And you know, a- another Willardism, Ken, is, uh- The biggest aspect of our free will that we have is what we allow into our minds. Yes. And so I think that's just a good word for some of our listeners as we come toward landing the plane is, like, look, I know it can sometimes be like am I being legalistic or not by saying no to certain things? But just recognize with the Lord, Lord, what is it when I allow it into my mind, including people, by the way, like communities of people sometimes or voices- Yeah or podcasts or whatever- Yeah or just friends. Yeah. What is it that when I allow it into my mind it does dim my conscience, it does lessen my fire for you? And that's what Wesley was known for. He was known for the fire of God, this strange fire, this warmth in, in him that God put in there. And I, I guess he was fanning that flame as, as Paul also said to Timothy, right? Throughout his life.

Ken 38:18

That's right.

James 38:19

Per, per his mother's advice. Yeah.

Ken 38:21

Yeah, I mean, like, um, you know, they say the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result, right? So, you know, up to the audience out there, I'd say try it, you know? Um, doing something different here and daring to... Even if you feel like it's religious, like, well, try it, you know? Um, give up something for a period of time. Fast, you know, uh, social media- Yeah or whatever and see how you feel. Yeah. Because man, I mean, the, there aren't many shortcuts in this journey, but I think that's one of them. Um-

James 38:58

Hmm

Ken 38:58

you know? It's like you remove the... I mean, think about it, the, you're, you're praying and asking the Lord to bring this transformation to you, to set you free from this besetting sin or what, this addiction, whatever.

James 39:12

Yeah.

Ken 39:12

And yet when he tells me to do something or to help myself, I'm saying, "Nope, thank you, I wanna do it on my terms. I really like being able to, you know, look at my phone that long each day," or whatever, and I'm like he's trying to answer my prayer.

James 39:27

Yeah.

Ken 39:28

And, and- Yeah I'm like, do I really need to cooperate? 'Cause he really knows better how- Yeah to get there. And if he ha- if he says, "Hey, remove this for a season," then he probably knows, you know?

James 39:39

Well, and it's, it's from a place of love. It's not this like, "Hey, do this or else I won't love you or I won't..." But I kind of had something like that happen yesterday where I was reviewing what I felt like the Lord was saying to me in my journal and it was like, "Come to me, um, humbly for rest." Yeah. And you know, nothing out of the ord- I mean, you, you see those types of ideas all throughout scripture, so you might say, "Why'd you need to hear that from the Lord?" But by hearing that and obeying that that day, I noticed, I'm like, he really does wanna show up. Mm-hmm. And that goes back to the life and the spirit thing is, like, so much of what we do, even when we're watching TV, what would it look like to invite Jesus into that? Or even to invite his discernment? Lord-

Ken 40:15

Yeah

James 40:16

what are you inviting me to? Because- I think sometimes he's fine in letting us enjoy TV or watching it with us, and sometimes he's like, "This isn't actually building up your love. This isn't actually doing you any good in this, in this moment, in this instance."

Ken 40:30

100%. It's, it's not about the actual item, like the TV or whatever. It's about what he's leading me to do in that moment or in that season- Yeah because he knows what I need. Yeah. You know, I used to get so... I remember I always got angry about the, uh, scripture that said, y- you know, from Galatians, "Walk in the spirit and you will not obey the lusts of the flesh." And I'm like Well, y- that's just wrong. Like, I remember thinking, "We should pull that out of the Bible 'cause-" I mean, I have been walking in the Spirit. I prayed for somebody the other day. They got healed. You know, I, I spend time in the prayer chapel, you know, each day, and I'm, I'm reading my Bible. I'm doing all these things, and I, I'm like, 'Hey, I've got evidence that I'm walking in the Spirit.'" But I hadn't given up some of these things that He had led me to do. Mm-hmm. And so I wasn't, I wasn't being free of, you know, sin or whatever. Mm-hmm. And so you know, um, I really needed to be obedient in all the ways, really following the Holy Spirit in, you know, instead of trying to get my points for while I did some things that look like walking in the Spirit, I really needed to just go ahead and um- Yeah surrender to Him moment by moment.

James 41:43

Well, Ken, I want to, as we land the plane, I want to ask you to pray that in a moment over our audience, es- that, especially that word of surrender. I mean, that just really is ringing as we're talking. Like, so many of us feel hopeless. Like, is there really hope to surrender? Will He really open the door if I seek? Ask, seek, and knock. Like-

Ken 41:58

Yeah

James 41:58

that, that's a real question for many of us. Mm-hmm. And I, I want you to pray that, but before I do, I just want to highlight a couple things. Um, Ken, like I mentioned, um, co-runs the, the Change Movement, and we've got a couple of resources I just want to highlight. One is their Navigating LGBT resource, which is,

Resources And Closing Prayer

James 42:15

Ken, I believe it's for both general public, but you've also made a version kind of for pastors and, and churches.

Ken 42:20

Yeah, yeah.

James 42:21

So as you, as you got a little taste of who Ken is, and maybe you've listened to our podcast with Elizabeth, you'll, you'll get a lot more of that, and I... Di- didn't you guys actually make that free at some point in the last couple years too? We

Ken 42:31

did. Yeah. When Charlie Kirk was shot, we were like, "We w- we just want everybody to be able to have this." So, um- Yeah it's free out there, and it equips any Christian. Like, how do you deal with family members or coworkers that are identifying as trans or all that? It's just a, it's a deep dive into scripture, into testimonies, into the discipleship models, um, really to help every Christian navigate LGBTQ.

James 42:57

Yeah, and, and, uh, Ken and Elizabeth are both deep thinkers. Um, as I've gotten to know Ken more today even, and, and meeting Elizabeth, uh, years ago at a conference and then being able to interview her, uh, so it's gonna be some really good stuff in there. And if you're also, like, wrestling with, "I don't know, this feels so contrary to everything I've really been believing for a while," they have collected a lot of testimonies, so just people's stories, like Ken's story. Uh, you, you'll find, um, other people's stories. So both of those links will be in the show notes, uh, testimonies, but also the, uh, Navigating LGBT- resource. And so Ken, just would love, um, for you get to pray, uh, again for that surrender for us as we- Yeah as we close out today.

Ken 43:38

Absolutely. Also, those testimonies are free just on our website, so changedman.com. Awesome. Um, but yeah. Father, we just, we just come to you, um, believing and remembering that there isn't anybody better than you. Um, there, there's nobody that has a better plan for our lives. Like, I can't come up with a plan for my life that's going to be- Mm nearly as good as yours. Um, we, we remind ourselves, Father, that, that you are good, what you identify as good, and, um, and that the gospel- Mm is good news. Um, and you satisfy our mouths with good things. Um, you restore our, our souls. You re- you renew us and, um, you know, you- you're the one who came up with the idea of this perfect Garden of Eden, like, this heaven on Earth. Lord, you're the one who put sexual gratifica- like, who put the pleasure into sex. Like- Mm-hmm um, why we wouldn't surrender to you is when you look at who you are, is pretty nonsensical. And so- Mm we worship you as a God that we can trust, Lord, as the faithful God, as the one who heals and saves and delivers, who has procured- Yeah heaven for us, um, who has given us access into his kingdom, which is comprised of righteousness, peace, and joy. And so, um, so Lord, I'm just asking that that awareness would fall upon all of us right now that are, that are listening or watching. Yeah. Lord, that we would be reminded that, um, quickly surrendering to you and to your lordship over our lives is just the most brilliant plan, even for- Mm personal fulfillment. Um, and I pray that you would encourage every person here, Lord, um, that, um, that it's as simple as just saying, you know, "Father, I, I, you know, I, I may already be saved, and you know, so I, I've already given my, my life to you and invited you in, and, and I've received that you died for me and have cleansed me. Your blood has cleansed me. But Lord, I want to make you the Lord of my life. I'm handing you the keys to my life. I'm handing you all of the cards that I had in my back pocket that was my es- escape plan to find gratification if something doesn't work by following God. Like, I'm handing you everything." Mm. "And Lord, I am putting my trust in you, that if I follow you this closely, that you're going to take care of me. You're going to- Mm lead me into the places of life. You're going to care for me, provide for me." And so- Uh, L-Lord, I, I pray that you just draw these, these men in to that place of, of total surrender and of fulfillment from walking that closely with you. Um, the, you know, the Bible says, um, "Submit to God, resist the devil and he will flee from you." And some of us, you know, are, are wrestling here because of our own, you know, and, and drawn away by our own lust. But others of us, there is some element of the enemy trying to- Mm slime us, re- you know, um, speaking into our ears, um, lying to us, d- just, you know, discouraging us or just trying to destroy our lives. And so that submission, Lord, would you, would you pull all of us into submission to you that totally eradicates any impact that the enemy can have on our lives? Um, but Lord, we, we just worship you. You are, you are so good. You, you are matchless, you are glorious, and you have- Mm the power and the desire to save and to set free. So we worship you, Lord.

James 47:23

Yes. Thank you. Amen.

Ken 47:27

Amen.