Can same sex attraction be changed?

The question “Can same-sex attraction change?” is rarely just curiosity. It usually carries fear: “Will I ever be able to marry?” “Is this who I am?” “If this shows up again, does that mean God isn’t working?” Josh sits down with Kyle Bowman and Greg Ruhland from Regeneration to talk honestly about change, discipleship, and what a hopeful, grounded Christian perspective can look like when you’re tired of shame and exhausted from trying to white-knuckle your way into freedom.

Kyle shares her personal journey from years of same-sex relationships to a slow reorientation of desire that comes from pursuing Jesus daily, not chasing a perfect internal state. Greg shares his story of early shame, pornography, and the long work of learning to “replace lust with love,” brick by brick. Along the way, we talk about tenderness, confession without condemnation, and why God’s kindness can meet you even when you feel like you brought the pain on yourself.

We also break the conversation into practical categories: behavior, identity, and desires. We unpack why desire can function like a “check engine light,” how identity labels can shrink a person’s full story, and why community and the Holy Spirit matter for real change. If you’re wrestling with unwanted desires, sexual temptation, or fear about your future, you’ll walk away with language, next steps, and hope that doesn’t depend on a single moment.

Subscribe for more conversations like this, share it with someone who needs hope, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway. What part of your story needs curiosity and kindness right now?

Resources from this episode:

• Regeneration spiritual coaching - Men | Women
• Awaken men’s retreat
• Sacred by Design women’s retreat
• Growth into Manhood by Alan Medinger
• Unwanted by Jay Stringer

Join us for the Awaken Retreat, a weekend designed to help men step out of isolation and into deeper honesty, healing, and connection.

October 9th -11th | Early Bird Registration Available More Information & Registration

Free Resources to help you on your journey to Becoming Whole:

👉Men's Overcoming Lust & Temptation Devotional
👉Women 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Women overcoming unwanted sexual Behavior)
👉Compass 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Wives who are or have been impacted by partner betrayal)

Transcript

Why This Question Matters

Josh Glaser 0:18

Hey, everybody. I'm excited about this today. If you're, if you're watching on YouTube, you know this is a little different format than we usually do for the Becoming Whole podcast. We're set up here in our studio that we use for our other podcast To talk with Greg Ruhland, Kyle Bowman. Greg, am I saying your name right?

Greg Ruhland 0:34

You are. You nailed it.

Josh Glaser 0:35

Okay. I, so, so, uh, before we get any further, I want you guys to... Well, actually, let me tell you what we're talking about today. Today, we're gonna be talking about can same-sex attractions be changed? And we'll see where the conversation goes, but invited two members of our team to be with us for today's podcast, and these are the two. So before we dig in any further, just so that the people we're talking to know who you are, give us a little context. Kyle, what do you do with Regeneration? Give us, give us a little fly-over of who Kyle Bowman is.

Kyle Bowman 1:03

Okay. Well, I am the director of coaching at Regeneration. Uh, I came to Regeneration as a person who was dealing with same-sex attraction. Uh, and the Lord has met me in that and has allowed me to, and showed me what it means to submit that to him.

Josh Glaser 1:23

Hmm.

Kyle Bowman 1:23

Uh, and it's been a blast being here and walking with others who are, some people who are having the same struggle.

Josh Glaser 1:32

Yeah. Yeah, and you do, you're... I, I think all of our coaches- Mm-hmm who you supervise would, would talk about how much they love working with you and for you, and I think the word encouragement, encourager would be on the top of their, their list of things to say about you as they work with you, which is awesome. You also encourage me. There are times we're together and I say something a little melancholy, and you're like,

Greg Ruhland 1:55

Josh, glazer,"

Josh Glaser 1:56

you know? So good to have you with us. And Greg, you're, you're the newest person on our team. Well, no, not quite, but, uh, certainly the newest person on our podcast. But so share a little about who you are and what you do here.

Greg Ruhland 2:07

Yeah. I'm Greg Ruhland. I've been with Regen for, I think, five months now. Awesome. And I'm one of the men's ministry associates, so I lead one of our men's recovery group, which has been a blast. Uh, and I'm also-

Josh Glaser 2:21

Which, which one? You gotta name it. We're, like-

Greg Ruhland 2:23

Oh, the Awaken

Josh Glaser 2:23

shameless plugs here. Yeah, there you go.

Greg Ruhland 2:24

Awaken, one of the, the men's Awaken group. Yeah. It's, it's fantastic. Yeah. I get to lead the in-person one, which I'm pretty, uh, partial to- Yeah uh, instead of Zoom. Yeah. I mean, Zoom is great, but in person rocks.

Josh Glaser 2:37

Shameless plug for Awaken, whether in person- Yeah or online. It's our, our men's recovery group, kind of our, our, our flagship group for men, so.

Greg Ruhland 2:45

Uh, and then I also get to be a church care liaison, so I get to network with pastors in the Baltimore region, um, find out what's happening in their congregations, tell them a little bit about Regeneration, and see if there's any overlap between what they're doing and what we're doing.

Josh Glaser 3:02

Yeah. Yes. Yeah, you're kind of the, the tip of the spear for us in regards to this new church initiative where we're really trying to bring what we do to, to churches locally here in Baltimore and, and then at some point maybe beyond that. But, uh, so for pastors in Baltimore, Greg's one of your, your- Yeah people here, so. Hit

Greg Ruhland 3:20

me up. I'll take you out for lunch.

Josh Glaser 3:21

There you go. Which is a blessing all the way around, really. Yeah. Yeah. So- And so you guys, um, a, a couple weeks ago, maybe about a couple weeks ago, I got an email, and this is not an unusual kind of email for us to get. Uh, but it was from a young man who expressed in the email, "Hey, I, I love the Lord. Um, He's doing a good work in my life. I've experienced same-sex attraction, uh, for as long as I can remember. I want to get married and have a biological family of my own someday. I'm excited about that. It's, that's my goal. It's what I want," he was saying. Um, "And I want to make sure," this he added, "I want to make sure that my same-sex attraction is completely gone

Meet Kyle And Greg

Josh Glaser 3:58

before I get married, because I don't think it'd be fair to my spouse to, to bring that." Which that question alone could be a whole podcast in itself, but, but we don't... Uh, I, I wanted to make sure that we had it maybe a little bit more of a, a larger conversation just about the question in general, which is under his question, which is, can same-sex attraction be changed? And in what ways? And what does that look like? And can it be changed for everybody? And I mean, there's just kind of a whole slew of stuff because our ministry was founded, as you both know, by a man who experienced same-sex attraction and who had a very miraculous conversion experience where that attraction changed for him.

Kyle Bowman 4:33

Mm-hmm.

Josh Glaser 4:34

Uh, not everybody's experience, but it certainly opens a, a lot of questions for a lot of people. So maybe we could start with just a little bit, if you guys could each be willing just to share just a, a minute or two about some of your own experience. Like, like Kyle, you mentioned that you came here for this reason. Um, yeah, I mean, don't answer the question entirely, but just give us a little bit of your background and, and kind of why you're at the table.

Kyle Bowman 4:58

Yeah. So, um, I spent 11 years involved in same-sex relationships, and, um, there was A point at which I was not fully satisfied with life.

Josh Glaser 5:19

Hmm.

Kyle Bowman 5:19

With my life in that way. And there was the question, is there more? Is there something more than what I'm experiencing? And so Christianity was something I grew up in. I grew up in a Christian home. There were pastors in my family. And, um, but for me, there wasn't like the personal relationship with Jesus.

Josh Glaser 5:47

Hmm.

Kyle Bowman 5:48

And so at, at my point of being discontent, I was like, "Okay, well, let me try Jesus again." Mm-hmm. Because like I said, I grew up in church, so it wasn't, that wasn't a foreign thing. So started a journey of what does it mean to follow Jesus? And so in my journey, there was a process of reorienting my desires. Did that happen overnight? No. It took

Kyle’s Journey From SSA To Peace

Kyle Bowman 6:28

a, some years actually. It took-

Greg Ruhland 6:30

Hm s-

Kyle Bowman 6:31

three, four years to have my desires reoriented. And so I can today say for me that same-sex attraction is not a struggle anymore. Um, but there's still other stuff that the Lord- Yeah is working out in me. And but, um, and again, like I, like you said, that's not everybody's story. But, um, I think for me, the, the key was just what does it mean for me to follow Jesus every day? Not what does it mean for me not to have same-sex attraction.

Josh Glaser 7:15

Hm. Um- Nick, can I, can I ask you a couple questions about that?

Kyle Bowman 7:17

Sure.

Josh Glaser 7:17

Um, just, I wanna g- just kinda get, getting your backstory a little bit more here. Uh, for a lot of people that I've talked to over the years, uh, discovering they have same-sex attractions and trying to work that out growing up in a Christian home can be one of the reasons that people leave Christianity, leave the church. Like, th- this is incompatible. This feels like who I am. I, I guess the church isn't for me, or I'm, you know, I'm not for the church. Like, was that a part of your story, or was it, or did you walk away from Christianity for some other reason?

Kyle Bowman 7:48

Yeah, so it wa- it, it wasn't a thing where- I didn't re- I can't really say that I kinda started having the true struggle or, or, or having that idea that it might, that it wasn't what God wanted until I was probably in my early 20s.

Josh Glaser 8:11

Okay.

Kyle Bowman 8:12

And, and part of that, um, was because I think just the era that I grew up in where it wasn't even a thing that was talked about.

Josh Glaser 8:22

Yeah.

Kyle Bowman 8:22

So I didn't even maybe even had, have words for what it was that I was experiencing until I think I saw like a program on TV one day where they actually said the word homosexuality and explained what it was. I was like, "Oh."

Josh Glaser 8:37

Hmm.

Kyle Bowman 8:38

I think that's me." But didn't really make that kind of decision for my life until I was almost 30 years old.

Josh Glaser 8:46

Okay. Okay. Yeah, I mean, it, it, it is kind of... And that would be a, a worthwhile podcast. And maybe we can even do it later even, like the difference that a cultural understanding or cultural ideology plays in our, in our own- Mm-hmm uh, conceptualization of what we're experiencing or who we are.

Kyle Bowman 9:01

Mm-hmm.

Josh Glaser 9:02

So okay, we'll, we'll come back to that maybe. Um, yeah, thanks, Kyle. Greg, Greg, what about you? What's, what's your story?

Greg Ruhland 9:09

Oh, yeah, where to begin? Um, yeah, I think when... Let's start with puberty. Uh, uh, puberty hits and arousal becomes, you know, starts to turn online, and most of my friends were aroused by women and attracted to women, and that wasn't my story. Hmm. Like, I generally found myself attracted to men, aroused, uh, that, that way. Didn't like it, though. Hmm. Like, I didn't want to have those feelings. I didn't wanna have those arousal patterns and attractions. Uh, so really led to a lot of like self-contempt-

Josh Glaser 9:44

Hmm,

Greg Ruhland 9:44

hmm uh, and inner, inner struggle with, uh, myself. Uh, I think I was always like too ashamed to ever do anything with them. Hmm. Like, so generally had to suppress a lot of my sexuality. Um, got to college and had a kinda... I, I went to college when the internet just kinda came online and then had kinda unfettered access to, uh, pornography. Yeah. Um, and, and found myself, uh, secretly with a pretty good porn addiction, uh, mostly with same-sex, uh, based pornography. Um, so moving to my junior year of college,

Greg’s Story Of Shame And Freedom

Greg Ruhland 10:28

um, had this lady in my life, my boss at my student job, uh, who kept talking to me about Jesus, and I didn't really know what she was talking about most of the time. Hmm. I grew up Catholic, so I had, I had a solid foundation, but I don't, I don't think I really understood, um, how to be with Jesus, how to interact with him. Hmm. So when, when she finally let, like, brought me to a decision point in my life, um, sh- like, I didn't know what she was talking about. She took me through the bridge diagram, if people know that. Um, and I said to her, like, "I don't, I don't know what this is that you're talking about."

Josh Glaser 11:09

Hmm.

Greg Ruhland 11:10

Uh, "But if I do this Jesus thing that you're talking about, am I gonna have to quit drinking?" Uh, 'cause that actually was a bigger issue in my life at that point. Mm-hmm. Um, and she looked at me with a big smile, and she said, "Oh, Greg, if you do this Jesus thing, at some point you'll want to quit drinking."

Josh Glaser 11:29

Hmm.

Greg Ruhland 11:30

Uh, so right from the get-go as my faith kinda took off, there was always this, I think this understanding that, like, as we do Jesus and we authentically relate with him, there's a way in which our desires shift and change over time.

Josh Glaser 11:47

Hmm.

Greg Ruhland 11:48

Um, so I think the first area that I learned that was really with drinking, 'cause it was, like, it probably was the most critical area of my life that I needed to see change, uh, a change of desires. Um, sexuality has been a longer journey. Um, there was some things early on where, um, in the first couple years got freed from pornography, uh, I think relatively miraculously. Hmm. I think, like, there was a year right when I came to Jesus where there was absolutely no struggle at all. Like, there was a grace-

Josh Glaser 12:25

Yeah

Greg Ruhland 12:25

uh, to work on some other things. And then, you know, all of a sudden a year later you're like, the grace is lifted a bit. Hmm. The struggle's back. Um, and it was a, a challenging time-

Josh Glaser 12:38

Hmm

Greg Ruhland 12:39

uh, where I worked with a lot of mentors to kinda begin to look at, like, what's going on in my life? What's, what's Jesus doing now? What's changed?

Josh Glaser 12:49

Yeah. Yeah.

Greg Ruhland 12:49

Mm-hmm. Uh, and, um- Really in that season, there was a, a way that, uh, the invitation for me was to begin to kinda dismantle, like I would call it a wall of lust. Like- Hmm think about building a stronghold of protection of lust, and it was like just taken brick by brick down. It wasn't like a miraculous thing, but there was a lot of inner work to do where, uh, brick by brick, I would say I began to learn how to replace lust with love.

Josh Glaser 13:23

Hmm. All right, let me come back to that, too, 'cause I, I wanna pick up on a thread that you, you both- Okay kind of talked about, and I think it's probably different for both of you, but, um, let me just ask the question this way. Like, you, you each have a- an element of what you just shared where you describe kind of relationship with God first prior to or at least prioritized over, "Let me get rid of this behavior. Let me get rid of this attraction. Let me get rid of this struggle." Uh, w- and, and, and now you, you both help other people in their journeys in various ways. Like, just maybe make a little bit more comment on that. Like, um, even outside the realm of just your own story, like just in general, what's your sense of like how, how, how does that work? I mean, um, relationship with Jesus first, then struggle? Relationship with Jesus as a priority over struggle? Like, um, yeah, I mean, and I'm gonna just gonna throw in some other words just to kinda prompt your thinking a little bit, not to direct your thinking, but like what part does submission have to play? What part does obedience have to play? What part does miracle have to play? What part does grace play? I mean, like, so not a simple question maybe, but let me just throw it on the table and see what you do with it

Kyle Bowman 14:40

Yeah, I, I think sometimes people have other reasons why they want to be free.

Josh Glaser 14:48

Hmm.

Kyle Bowman 14:49

If I talk to... In talking to some of my own clients, if I were to say, "Well, why do you wanna be free from

Pursue The Healer Not Healing

Kyle Bowman 14:58

this?" Uh, and it's, "I wanna be a better leader. I wanna be a good hus- a wife. I want to be able to sing in the choir or be a worship leader or..." There's a lot of other reasons. And if, if you can peel back and say, "You know what? My ultimate reason is just 'cause I love Jesus so much."

Josh Glaser 15:26

Hmm.

Kyle Bowman 15:26

Full stop. Nothing else.

Josh Glaser 15:28

Hmm.

Kyle Bowman 15:29

Uh, and I think that's the piece. There's, there's always this other thing that I need to be able to do in order... Like, if I'm free of this, then I can do whatever you fill in the blank.

Josh Glaser 15:45

Hmm.

Kyle Bowman 15:46

And I think if, if you could set aside the thing that you, you think you want to do and just think about what does it mean for you day to day to pursue Jesus, and then allow him to, to bring about all these other things-

Josh Glaser 16:06

Hmm

Kyle Bowman 16:07

the, I think the road is a little easier. Or, or it could be just, "You know, I just don't want people to see me in a certain light. I don't want people to treat me differently because I have this thing. And so if I don't have this thing, then I'll be treated like everybody else." And I think all of those... While all of these things are honorable, it's not the thing that really helps to bring transformation, and that's a big topic in and of itself- Hmm is like what actually is transformation.

Josh Glaser 16:41

So, so it's not that you're, it's not that you're saying like, you know, desiring to be in the choir or to be married one day or, um, to be a better leader or to even, even to f- feel more aligned with other people or more like I can relate with the other guys or the other women. Like, you're not saying that's a, those are bad desires, but you're saying that, that they're... Or are you saying that they're, those aren't bad desires in themselves, but they're not, as far as m- motivation, motivators for the day to day, they're not as, as powerful, they're not as good, they're not as pure, they're not as what, uh, in relation to like this journey?

Kyle Bowman 17:16

Um, I think they're not as transformational.

Josh Glaser 17:18

Okay.

Kyle Bowman 17:19

Um-

Josh Glaser 17:20

Hmm

Kyle Bowman 17:20

because I think it's It's almost like The transformation allows you to do XYZ as opposed to, uh, letting Jesus transform you so that you can do XYZ, right? Mm. Mm. Like, you're pursuing these things to do as opposed to pursuing Jesus. And as something that we've said in re- at Regeneration is, like, what does it mean to pursue the healer instead of your healing?

Josh Glaser 17:59

Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of... It's... What comes to mind for me is, like, a, um, i- is the healing a litmus test- Right or a test that you are putting before the Lord? Like, "Hey, you do this and I'm yours," versus, "I'm yours and, and I'll, you know, d- regardless of, of what I see or experience you doing." That's a hard, that's a hard word in some ways. Mm-hmm. Um, there is something hopeful about it, and I th- I think, I think what strikes me is in some ways, Kyle, you're, you're pointing to the idea that w- whatever it is that you're wanting, as good as it may be, uh Like, Jesus himself is, is more than that thing, and Jesus in your life is, is more valuable, more fulfilling, more worthwhile than that thing, as good as that thing may be. Mm-hmm. Um, that's a, that's, that's beautiful, powerful, hopeful, and, and hard.

Kyle Bowman 18:59

And hard.

Josh Glaser 19:00

Yeah.

Kyle Bowman 19:00

It is hard.

Josh Glaser 19:01

Hmm.

Kyle Bowman 19:01

Um, because you know what Jesus can do, right? You, you, you know that if this thing could go, you, you might feel like, "I can serve Jesus better."

Josh Glaser 19:13

Yeah.

Kyle Bowman 19:14

Or, um, I can do more things for the Lord. I can, you know, avail myself for all the things that the Lord wants from me, and really He just wants you-

Josh Glaser 19:25

Hmm

Kyle Bowman 19:25

before all the other things. He just wants you.

Josh Glaser 19:28

Wow. Okay, now that, that's a game changer because before, I mean, I, I was kind of framing up your response with like a, from the obedience mindset of like, okay, this is your part. Like, ca- are you willing to make God, put Jesus first before all the things that you want, even the good things you want? But even as you, as you kind of flip that script a little bit, like, well, that's what He wants. He wants you- Mm-hmm more than you doing any of those things- Mm-hmm or living that certain way or having the removal of that in your life. He wants you even as you are.

Kyle Bowman 19:57

Yeah, 'cause that's the mark of a good Christian, right?

Josh Glaser 20:00

Hmm.

Kyle Bowman 20:01

Good Christian, I go to church, I do the things, I'm in the small groups, I go to the Bible study, I... On the worship team, I serve on the parking lot committee. Like, I do a lot of things and, and Jesus just wants you before you do anything.

Josh Glaser 20:18

Yeah. That's a good word. Love that. I

Greg Ruhland 20:21

think I agree. I think, uh, if I think back at my journey, um, like I'm 47 now, came to Jesus around 23, so I've been doing this 24 years. And I think there were things that I did early on that were helpful, but really when I began to learn how to let Jesus love me for me-

Kyle Bowman 20:43

Hmm

Greg Ruhland 20:43

uh, and including that, like experiencing, just being able to experience the presence of Jesus in the midst of any negative emotion-

Kyle Bowman 20:52

Hmm

Greg Ruhland 20:54

and to be able to come to Him more honestly and let Him love me, like that, that has sped my journey up than I think any other thing- Hmm really. Where the, where like... For me these days, that's how I would describe, it's like the seed of transformation. It's when we can come into the presence of God, be honest, and let Him love us no matter what.

Josh Glaser 21:22

Hmm.

Greg Ruhland 21:23

Um-

Josh Glaser 21:23

Right there.

Greg Ruhland 21:24

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Josh Glaser 21:26

Say, say, say, okay, l- let's, say more about that. Like, and maybe s- if I could push you a little bit, like, okay, so, so this, this young guy that, that emailed, like, okay, so he's- I'm, I'm, I'm... He did not say any of this, but I'm kind of just on my years of experience of walking with different men and women, I, like, this fits. Like, um, I, I, I wanna be married someday. I wanna have children of my own someday. I am feeling such intense desire in this moment to look at gay porn or to hook up with another guy, um, and I feel terrible at myself for wanting it, and yet I really, really feel the desire for it. Like, what does it mean, Greg, to, like, to be with Jesus, to let God love me in that moment? Yeah. Or in a season where I'm experiencing that on a repeated basis. There's

Greg Ruhland 22:21

probably several different prongs. You might... You guys

Tenderness, Honesty, And Shame Loops

Greg Ruhland 22:23

might have stuff to add. Like, I first think, like, just learning how to, like, be broken-

Josh Glaser 22:28

Mm

Greg Ruhland 22:29

before Jesus. Let him... And just learning the skill of letting him love you in the midst of that. I think secondly, um, having trusted people that can be kind of the hands and feet of Jesus to open that space up for you is also huge. Mm. Um, like, I've, I've only been here f- five months, but I've really grown to appreciate just the tenderness of which, uh, all of our staff, uh, can navigate these type of conversations. Mm. And I can look back at my journey and I'm like, "Man, if I would've had that tenderness-

Josh Glaser 23:08

Mm

Greg Ruhland 23:08

earlier on in my journey," like, some of where it's p- it got paused or slowed down or got stuck in shame loops, I think I would've... It, it would've opened up what I needed. Um, and then being able to un- unpack, like, like having... For me, having some framework around, all right, like, often our sexual arousals are just our emotions sexualized. Like, can I, can I lay the sexual part aside and actually- Mm unpack what, what's the underlying emotion underneath all this? And, and then begin to engage with, you know, trusted friends and Jesus around that. Um, so I think that was a huge skill that I didn't learn until probably seven, eight years ago. Mm. Like, just how to, how to, like... Oh, there's more go- like, when arousal hits, there's more going on than just sexual desire. Right. Mm-hmm. Like-

Josh Glaser 24:11

Yeah

Greg Ruhland 24:11

and can I give myself some space to actually dig in? But usually it's like- Shame often gets in the way. Like w-we Like it, it can hinder us from wanting to, like, actually sit down and look at-

Josh Glaser 24:28

Yeah

Greg Ruhland 24:29

look at what's happening in our fantasy-

Josh Glaser 24:31

Yeah

Greg Ruhland 24:31

with some honesty.

Josh Glaser 24:34

Yeah, and I think we, I think we inherit that. I mean, I, when I think back to Genesis 3, after Adam and Eve sin, the Lord comes into the garden.

Greg Ruhland 24:43

Mm.

Josh Glaser 24:43

And it's actually fascinating to me. I, I, there's a, a Jewish man in my life who I, uh, uh, love very much, who, like, in his, in his latter, latter years began to discover, uh, that that scene with the Lord entering the garden was a scene of gentleness, the Lord walking in the garden, the Lord calling with a question, "Adam, where are you? Um, who told you that?" As opposed to, 'cause he'd always read it through the grid of, like, this angry God, like, storming into the garden, "Where are you? Who told you that?" You know, like, but seeing it as a, as a, as a scene of tenderness really began to reshape his own perspective of, like, wait a minute, who, who is this God of the Bible? And I think about... I lo- I love what you said, but even just kind of the can we be broken and, and receive tenderness in there. I- one of the stories that comes to mind, as you said, that was for me, and what a surprise this was, and it was from a mentor I had here, Jeff, who I remember confessing to him what I had done, filled with re- with, with regret, filled with, with self-contempt and remorse and shame, and he just hugged me-

Kyle Bowman 25:56

Mm.

Josh Glaser 25:57

And let- Yeah me just cry.

Kyle Bowman 25:58

Mm.

Josh Glaser 25:59

Cry about my own sense of like, I keep doing this. I feel so helpless. I, I love it and I hate it. I mean, just the, just grieving my own experience of my sexual desire and the way that I was continuing to return to it. And I remember kind of pulling myself together, you know, wiping my eyes, and being, "Okay. Thank you. Thank you for the hug," you know. And he just looked at me and said, "Are you done?" Meaning, are you done crying? And I was like, "No." And I just leaned back in, and he just, just made space for me- Mm to grieve.

Greg Ruhland 26:30

Wow, what a gift.

Josh Glaser 26:31

Mm. And I didn't know, I had, I had not experienced before Regen that, that Jesus could feel compassion for the pain I was bringing upon myself through my sin. Like, I, I... It just was a different category for me. Like, it's hard to be human. Mm-hmm. It's hard to wrestle with sin. It hurts, and He sends us the great comforter, not just to comfort us when bad things happen to us, but also to comfort us when we do bad things ourselves. And, and, and in part- Yeah 'cause He also recognizes there are layers under this that we don't even understand. Um, and you also ta- I mean, you're kinda talking... I, I know, I don't know that you'd read it at that point, but J- Jay Stringer's comment about, in Unwanted, about the, um- you know, that a, a, a, a night of like, I can't remember how he puts it, but a night of, of prayerful, earnest prayer about, you know, like, "Lord, deliver us," is not worth as much as- Yeah as a, a moment of curiosity and kindness- Mm-hmm about like what, what's going on underneath this? And shame does seem to like, like put a stopper in some of that self-discovery in ways that-

Greg Ruhland 28:45

Yeah, I, I mean, even as you say that, I'm like, man, I had enough of those prayer nights that- Yeah weren't going anywhere. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, at thankfully it's, uh, I think it was probably five years ago, I was stumbled across Jay Stringer's stuff- Mm which has been so helpful.

Josh Glaser 29:01

Yeah. Yeah, and I've, I've... The number of professionals I've heard since then repeat, including people on our team, unabashedly repeating like, "Can we approach this with curiosity and kindness?" Mm-hmm. "Can we approach this with curiosity and kindness?" There's, there's such gentle, tender words, um, as opposed to, you know,

Greg Ruhland 29:17

What

Kyle Bowman 29:17

did you

Josh Glaser 29:17

do?" Yeah. Um, or, "What's wrong with me?" Or, um... Kyle, what, uh, what, what about you? Anything you'd add? Is anything popping for you as we're-

Kyle Bowman 29:26

No, I mean, I think that it's just so good, um, when you can have the freedom to really tell the Lord what's happening and how you're feeling about it, whether it's pretty or ugly. Yeah. And just to say it and to know that the lightning bolt is not coming out of the sky- Mm to strike you. And I, I'm sure for some in whatever their church tradition is, maybe you're not even supposed to talk to God that way. Like, you're supposed to just kinda deal with it internally, and then come back to God and go, "Ta-da, here I am." Yeah. "I'm good." And the Lord is like, "No, like, I went to the cross for all of that stuff, so give me all of it so that it gets dealt with." Um, and so just having the freedom to be able to say like, "Lord, this, I don't like it. It feels whatever," or, "Lord, why can't I do this? Because this is how I feel." Mm. Just to be that open and honest and know that the Lord wants to do something with that.

Josh Glaser 30:38

Yeah. Yeah. It w- the, the illustration comes to mind for me, and I think this is a fitting... You guys can push back if you think this is, I'm missing something with this, but, like, let's just say you- your, your parents owned a motorcycle when you were a kid, and they left the keys in it they would drive it. They never told you anything about it, and one day you go, "Man, I can get on this motorcycle," and you turn it on and you start driving. Well, there'd be all sorts of wreckage and damage because you never learned how to ride the motorcycle. And I think that there's a way that our sexuality, our experience of sexual desire, our, what we understand about ourselves from it, uh, w- whatever the, whatever the sexual desire is, whatever our sexual arousal template is, where we s- we simply need shepherding. Mm-hmm. We need guidance. What do I do with this stuff? What does it mean about me? What does it- Yeah what do I do when I experience it? And when I, when I talk to parents, when I talk to adults and ask, you know, "How many of you, your parents shepherded you in that way?" Like, no- nobody raises their hand, or har- very few people- Mm raise their hand. If they raise their hand, like, their experience of it was, "Yeah, I remember my parents talking about it. They were so uncomfortable that I felt incredibly uncomfortable." That's not a, that's not a space for curiosity and kindness or-

Greg Ruhland 31:56

Mm

Josh Glaser 31:56

or a gentle kind of direction like the Lord would give. And I, I've heard you s- I've heard you share that many times, that some of your clients are just super surprised. They're like, "Wait, I could, I can, I can say this stuff to Jesus?" Like-

Kyle Bowman 32:06

Right. "Are

Josh Glaser 32:06

you sure?" Like...

Kyle Bowman 32:07

Right

Josh Glaser 32:08

And it's not just a theological question, it's a f- it's a felt-

Kyle Bowman 32:11

Mm-hmm

Josh Glaser 32:12

question. Like, I, "Lord, I'm not sure you wanna hear this. Like, do you wanna hear this? Are you, you know, is this okay with you

Kyle Bowman 32:19

that I'm talking about

Josh Glaser 32:20

this?" Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Kyle Bowman 32:21

Yeah. Um, but I mean, look at some of the psalms. Look at how David and the other psalmists just, like, "Lord, this isn't fair. This isn't right. Why are people coming after me? Why are you letting them come at... Why do the wicked prosper?" Like, you hear the angst and the pain from the pages of scripture.

Josh Glaser 32:45

Hmm.

Kyle Bowman 32:46

And I think those are great examples. Um, and there is a point at which the s- they could come and say, "Okay, but Lord, I trust

Josh Glaser 32:56

you." Hmm.

Kyle Bowman 32:56

Right? And I don't know from verse one- Right to verse whatever, how long that took. Yeah. But they got there, and I think that's how you get there.

Josh Glaser 33:08

Hmm.

Kyle Bowman 33:08

Um, I'm sure there's so many of those who are listening have friends or family members that they've just word vomited all over, right? Mm. Because those people were safe for them, the bonds of that relationship were stronger because they did have the space to say what they were feeling and, and get out the thing. It's no different with Jesus.

Josh Glaser 33:40

Mm-hmm.

Kyle Bowman 33:41

If you really want to get intimate with Jesus, let him know all the stuff

Josh Glaser 33:48

Yeah

Kyle Bowman 33:48

And, and not be afraid of it.

Josh Glaser 33:51

I can, I can literally think of areas of my life today where I'm like, "Hmm, I, I think I need to take Kyle's advice and just, just let it out." Some- sometimes that, sometimes that, like, I don't even realize what's keeping me away from Him until I, until I... And, or how scary it is to even talk to Him out of fear of, like, what He might say or what... And that's just the, that's part of the baggage that I need to work through.

Kyle Bowman 34:17

Mm-hmm.

Josh Glaser 34:18

Um, so a couple, couple things, and I, I've got another kind of category I want us to get into. So I've heard you, you guys both talk about the importance of really cultivating relationship with Jesus as a, as a foundational piece, uh, w- without condition. This is, I, I need to connect with you, Lord, whether it's an ugly rant or it's just a, a, a broken, weeping cry in the arms of a, a brother or sister or, or whatever. I need to find some space to, to let Him, and for me to experience from Him, uh, the, the kindness of the Lord in, in re- in relation to whatever my struggles are. But coming back to the question of, of, um, change, I wanna throw out three words for you, kind of ca- categories, uh, that I, I've found are helpful in, in even addressing, like, what are the... what's the likelihood of change? What's... How is this gonna happen for me? And I, I'd love to hear you guys speak into this. But, uh, back when I first started in the ministry, one of the, one of the ways that people phrased the question was simply as,

Behavior, Identity, And Desire Explained

Josh Glaser 35:23

as, as plain as this: Can gay people change? There's a lot of assumption even in how that, that statement is, is, is said. Um, but so one of the, one of the ways that I've heard this broken down is like, well, like, let's talk about this in categories, and the categories would include behavior, identity, and, and desires.

Greg Ruhland 35:44

Mm-hmm.

Josh Glaser 35:45

Um, so I'd love for you guys just to where- take it wherever you want, but, like, a- as far as the Lord bringing change in a person's life, uh, yours or someone you've walked with or, or people you know, like, what do you... what do, what do those words say to you, behavior, identity, behavior, identity, desires? Like, um, where would you go with that in regards to the whole question of same-sex attractions?

Kyle Bowman 36:08

I think I would start, I would start with, um, what does that look like in other areas of your life? Um, 'cause I think too often, and I think more especially with people who deal with SSA, it feels so different than any other kind of sin. And so for some reason, SSA is over here by itself, and all the other sins are over here in a bigger bucket.

Josh Glaser 36:39

Hmm.

Kyle Bowman 36:39

So I would first even ask the question, well, what does it mean for any other areas of your life? So- And are you still having a problem with anger? Like w- how, what ways was your life transformed with anger when you met the Lord?

Josh Glaser 36:59

Hmm.

Kyle Bowman 37:00

What was it like with, uh, I don't know, the emotionally dependent relationships? What was it like with other areas of sin, gossiping or lying or whatever it is? Uh, I say let's, let's put all of it in the same basket, because whatever work the Lord did for you in these other areas, he wants to do in your sexuality.

Josh Glaser 37:28

Hmm.

Kyle Bowman 37:29

And if, I think part of what can happen is when you can make that switch for yourself, you might be able to see it for other people, but sometimes you don't see it for yourself. So if you can make the switch that, wait a minute, like, God has transformed the way that I, my, my anger, that I don't have these angry outbursts- I still get angry, but I handle it differently.

Josh Glaser 37:59

Mm-hmm.

Kyle Bowman 38:00

I respond to it differently. So transformation could mean, or submission could mean I can acknowledge that these desires exist, and I can respond to them in the way that God wants me to respond.

Josh Glaser 38:22

Hmm.

Kyle Bowman 38:23

Because To reorient desires doesn't mean that desires... Like, some people would think, "Okay, there's a thing that has to get shut off first, and then a different thing that gets turned on," but it all comes from the same place.

Josh Glaser 38:43

Hmm.

Kyle Bowman 38:45

So if you're willing to s- at least say, "Okay, hey, I got attracted to the person of, this person of the same sex. Okay?" Even pausing and going, "What's happening, Lord, today? Oh, you know what? I skipped a meal. I'm really hungry."

Josh Glaser 39:03

Hmm.

Kyle Bowman 39:04

Um, and this, this hunger is creating vulnerability, so I can respond to this differently. And then I don't have to... Just like you don't identify yourself as a angry person, you don't have to identify yourself as a same-sex attracted person. Hmm.

Josh Glaser 39:22

Hmm.

Kyle Bowman 39:22

Um, that's an experience that you have, but you don't have to identify yourself that way.

Josh Glaser 39:28

I see what you're saying. So, so it's kind of like, um, uh, and you're, you're really coming against a, a cultural ideology that, that basically treats a same-sex desire, same-sex sexual desire differently than another type of desire. So for example, um, if I find that I have a, that I, uh, that anger rises up in me over and over again in certain situations, uh, there's not an, there's not an external cultural pressure for people to say like, "Hey, you just have to accept that this is who you are. You're an angry person. Go ahead and rant, and then life will be happy." Like, people kind of generally sense like, okay, you might have a temper issue. Probably wanna work on that. Like, there's just a different treatment of it. Mm-hmm. And you're, you're basically saying, like, if we can remove the identity piece from the way that we f- that we feel about or understand what's happening for us, then it gives us a little bit more maneuverability or maybe a lot more maneuverability- Mm-hmm in how we respond to it. It's not, this is not a desire equals identity dictates what I do, uh, or informs what I should do as much as desires come and go for lots of reasons. They're worth exploring maybe the why underneath. That's what you were talking about earlier. Um, but they don't have to be the def- the defining word about who I am as an identity.

Kyle Bowman 40:45

Right.

Josh Glaser 40:46

Yeah.

Kyle Bowman 40:46

Yeah, they don't. And, and, um- You can, you can step into more of who you are, uh, because there are th- there are things that you might wanna throw off of yourself because you identify them with being same-sex attracted.

Josh Glaser 41:09

Right.

Kyle Bowman 41:10

Right? So if you are the guy who is, is more intuitive and, um, you're not the sports dude, and but now you think, "I can't be those things because those things equal-

Josh Glaser 41:31

Yeah

Kyle Bowman 41:32

same-sex attracted." And if you could throw off that part and go, "Wait, like, this is unique to who I am." And then what happens is you start to... Your behavior starts to become more of a response to not just I'm trying to white-knuckle, I'm trying to, honey, you know, just not gonna do it, just not gonna do it. But you, you start to be able to say, "Okay, wait a minute. There's a way that I can respond to what's happening right now." And if you have some broken patterns in the way you're responding, you, you realize, "I don't have to do that." And so You're not just modifying behavior.

Josh Glaser 42:21

Yeah.

Kyle Bowman 42:21

Right? Yeah. It's, it's not just about just change this behavior, because even with behavior modification, you still have other areas of your life where you're just, like, jacked up.

Josh Glaser 42:31

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I, the word that comes to mind as you're talking is, is really that in some ways the cultural narrative or ideology around this is, is, is reductive. It's, it kind of is all this funnels into this one thing. This all means this about you, and therefore that's what you gotta live with, versus everybody's different. You got, like, different gifts, different temperament, different, uh, desires, non-sexual and sexual alike, and, like, different days where you feel different. Like, let's explore the fullness of who you are without letting this thing be a, such a defining-

Kyle Bowman 43:05

Mm-hmm

Josh Glaser 43:05

characteristic. I mean, there, we could probably do a whole podcast on, on that 'cause I... Yeah, I mean, last thing I'll say about that, then I wanna hear from Greg a little bit. Like, in the men that I walked with over the years who wrestle with same-sex attraction, one of the things that I've lamented sometimes is, is when they do what you're saying. Like, all these things m- point to the idea that I'm gay.

Greg Ruhland 43:24

Mm-hmm.

Josh Glaser 43:24

You know, I, I'm more sensitive, I'm more musical, I always liked acting, I never liked sports, I can't stand sports, it drives me crazy when guys don't go deep in their conversations, all those things. And I go, "Yeah, man, me too." You know? Like, um, Audrey's gonna fix our light. Uh, but we won't stop this conversation 'cause it's too good. So, uh, but I, no, I think that there, I think there's something like, yeah, I mean, the, the world, God has created lots and lots of different kinds of men, lots and lots of different kinds of women. Um, and, you know, like, like, let's not throw all sorts of, like, specific characteristics in a stereotyped way at everybody. Mm-hmm. You know, you have to be this, or it means you're gay, lesbian-

Kyle Bowman 44:03

Right

Josh Glaser 44:03

fill in the blank. Okay. I can't remember what my initial question was, Greg. Oh, we were talking about identity, desires, behaviors. But-

Greg Ruhland 44:08

Yeah

Josh Glaser 44:09

yeah, what, what comes to mind for you?

Greg Ruhland 44:10

I mean, Kyle covered a lot. Good job, Kyle. Um, I think behavior is, like, I just think of the basic work of, like, if you're in active addiction-

Josh Glaser 44:19

Mm

Greg Ruhland 44:20

like, behaviors is something that you can begin to try to do. Like, and it's kinda creating some space, like you're changing your, the things that you do to try to create some space where you can hear about your identity differently.

Josh Glaser 44:34

Yeah, give me some examples. What, 'cause what I think about, yeah- Uh,

Greg Ruhland 44:37

yeah, like for guys struggling with pornography, like, hey, man, get some, you know, get some filters, get some accountability. Um, recognize where in your week are you acting out and you wish you weren't acting out. So you, you have the things that you can do behavior-wise to try to set yourself up for what you really want out of life, like what- Yeah your goals really are. Um, so that's what I think about when I think about behaviors. And then identity, I think is often- Uh, where, where kind of, uh, desire and, uh, the flow of life comes from then. Mm. Like, as you begin to kinda sort out your identity. It, it makes me... Like, I think about my own journey, like, there's an internal component, like, to understand my manhood differently. Mm. Like, like I began to understand my sonship early on with Jesus, and in this, probably this last leg of journey, like the last 10 years, it's more been about manhood-

Kyle Bowman 45:41

Mm

Greg Ruhland 45:42

than sonship. So there seems to be a, a, a good progression, a good maturing. Like, that seems like a, a great way to, "Oh, that makes sense." Yeah. Mm. You start as sons and you grow into men. Um, just like, uh, you know, it makes me think of Medinger's f- book- Yeah Growth Into Manhood. Yeah. Like, you do some growing. Um, and thinking about it, there's an internal component and a external component. Like, for me, like, growth into my identity as a man, um, the internal component is how, how am I internally relating to my own strength? Mm. Looking at those areas of comparison, like, like you might not feel like a man 'cause you're not into s- sports, you're not into this. Um, and, a- and we can have some preconceived ideas about what strength looks like or doesn't look like. Mm.

Josh Glaser 46:36

Right.

Greg Ruhland 46:37

Uh, but some of internal strength is, uh, looking at, like, being able to have difficult conversations. That takes some strength. Uh, being able to sit in your negative emotions, that takes some strength. Mm. Mm. And so reframing some of these other things in terms of, of strength, like, has helped me form an internal identity around my masculinity and my manhood differently. Mm. And then there's the external component of, like, like, just getting more comfortable in my body. Like, I've had to do my own trauma work, uh, recognize that some of my stories, like, man, I've been... Because of childhood trauma, I've been cut off from my body. Uh, s- so there's just a way that, uh, like, I think I was telling you the other day, like, even going to the gym right now, I'm, like, there's a way that as I'm in the gym, I can feel my muscles differently as- Mm I'm actually working them out 'cause I'm learning how to be more comfortable in my body. Mm. And so I would put that as a, like, an external. This is how I'm engaging my body with the, the rest of the world. Um-

Josh Glaser 47:49

Yeah

Greg Ruhland 47:49

same for desire. I think, like, when we were talking about desire earlier, it made me think of, like- Uh, it does grow and change over time. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like, and that's a good thing. Like, the desires of a, a man should be different than a desires of a boy. Yeah.

Josh Glaser 48:06

Yeah.

Greg Ruhland 48:06

Um, uh, or the desires of a, you know, a man facing his maybe, you know, knowing he might have a year left to live. Um, so I think stage of the, like being introduced to stages of faith, like a, some basic framework to talk about the, the spiritual journey-

Josh Glaser 48:29

Mm

Greg Ruhland 48:29

and how we go through different phases of life. And in each of those phases of life, desires shift. Mm-hmm.

Josh Glaser 48:36

Mm-hmm.

Greg Ruhland 48:37

Um, and then recognizing that when that happens, um, often you get to revisit previous seasons.

Josh Glaser 48:47

Yeah.

Greg Ruhland 48:48

Um, so even like with the, the question that prompted this, thinking about like, "Hey, as a litmus test, do you need to be completely free in order to get married?" I'd be like, "Oh, no." Like, like I, I have an expectation that as I- if I move into another stage, like oh yeah, like same sex arousal might be knocking at my door again. Like, I don't, I don't see that as something bad.

Josh Glaser 49:16

Mm.

Greg Ruhland 49:17

Uh, I see that as like, "Hey, there's something happening in my life. Uh, there might be a call to go deeper here, and yeah, I m- I might need to go back and revisit some things." Um, but I see it more as an invitation- Mm than, um, a litmus test or a warning sign. Yeah. Like, it, it's even like, I think the way I've related to that temptation when it comes, like sometimes it's just straight up like the enemy is messing you over and there's, there's, there's no significance to it other than like, "Hey, it's time to resist the enemy and just stay the course." Other times it's like, no, there's an invitation. Mm-hmm. There's something new happening. There's something to bring kindness and curiosity and, and see what's actually happening-

Josh Glaser 50:11

Mm

Greg Ruhland 50:11

below the head with all my desires.

Josh Glaser 50:14

Mm. That's really good. So good, Greg. I, you... And you guys have both said this to a different degree that... So that was, I, you know, I gave the categories behavior, identity, desires, and I don't know where this fits in, but you both described the importance of a different posture. That's not quite the right word, but, but I'll use it for now. A different posture and attitude towards the, the presence or the experience of same-sex attraction. Like that change sounds like it was pretty significant for both of you and for clients. Like, can I experience this without it reducing me to something, without it labeling me, without it meaning something, without it being the, the You know, the litmus test of, of readiness

When Attraction Returns In New Seasons

Josh Glaser 50:58

for ministry or marriage or something else as opposed to it, it, it is, it is one thing, and it means what it means, which may be different in different seasons. And hopefully as we grow, it, it, it will still, it'll still be something that provides information, but it doesn't have to be the, the, the be-all, end-all. Mm-hmm. Um, and I would say, I would say my experience here, that, that does make me angry because I do feel like... Not, not what you're saying, but I do feel like the culture puts undue pressure on men and women or young men and women who experience same-sex attraction that this, that this does mean something. And so if you ever ex- if you try to walk away from this, but you continue to experience it from time to time, or you ever have a slip or a fall, you see, and just kinda this voice of accusation like, "You're always gonna be like this. You're always... And this, this means X, Y, and Z about you." Man, it- if we, if we held that kind of standard for any other struggle, I'm not sure, like, we'd just be messed up as a culture. I mean, like, you don't say to, you know, somebody who's, who's been overweight for 20 years and, and changes their eating habits and begins to exercise on a regular basis and learns about nutrition and learns about emotional regulation and not trying to stuff their feelings, and then they, they, you know, have a rough day and binge on fried chicken, you don't say to that person, like, "You see-

Kyle Bowman 52:28

I know

Josh Glaser 52:28

what you are you know, you're not as skinny as you think you are. You're not as healthy." Like, you're... We say, "Yeah, rough day. What do you learn?" Mm-hmm. Like, um, "You need a hug, you need some tenderness, you need some-"

Kyle Bowman 52:38

Yeah.

Josh Glaser 52:38

You know? Yeah. Gosh, you guys. Well, maybe, so maybe let's try to land the plane here, and I, I think there's lots we could talk about, and I actually feel like I, I wish I'd kinda been keeping a catalog of some of the topics you brought up because I think- Mm they're so important for just this journey in general. But do, and I'm putting you on the spot with this, but do you guys have... What would you say to someone who's have, who's, who's having a hard time with their posture or with their attitude or with their experience of same-sex attraction? Like, um, whether their own or, or maybe a loved one, like, where their, their, their experience is, is typically when they, when they experience that, they're flooded with shame, regret, self-remorse, self-hatred. Um, uh, or, and, and that, of course, is gonna just prompt them to feel more and more like, "I gotta act on this," which is ironic. But, um- Mm what would you, what, give us, what would be a good step or two towards, like, I can hold this differently. I can experience this differently. Do you, is it something you can do alone? Are there practices you can take? Are there books? Are there people? Like, what... Do you need people? Like, what, what's a good way maybe forward for somebody who's really wrestling with, "Man, I, I feel same-sex attraction and I just hate it." Um.

Kyle Bowman 53:52

I mean, I think Greg brought up something earlier, like, h- are you willing to, in that moment, pause, even take a minute and go, "What in the world is going on?" Like are you willing to just even ask yourself that question? Um, because I think oftentimes if you start to, maybe you review your day, you review your week, you'll realize there, there's some areas of vulnerability. You might realize, you know what? I have not had, like, any good face time with any of my friends. Hmm. And I have been really isolated this week. I always tell people when any kind of desire comes up, whether it's same sex attraction or otherwise, like I think that's a, that's your check engine light.

Josh Glaser 54:43

Yeah, that's good.

Kyle Bowman 54:44

And there's th- so I need to check and see what's going on. And so just to be able to pause and just do a quick inventory about the day, the week, your health,

Josh Glaser 54:56

you know. Or, or may- maybe even if I could, if I could add it a little bit, like maybe maintenance required. 'Cause the check engine light could be like, it's about to explode, you need to pull over. Like maybe it's just maintenance required.

Kyle Bowman 55:07

Maintenance,

Josh Glaser 55:07

yeah. Like

Kyle Bowman 55:07

just-

Josh Glaser 55:07

It could be,

Kyle Bowman 55:08

yeah, it could be regular,

Practical Steps, Friends, And Community

Kyle Bowman 55:09

just maintenance, just to go what is happening, just to be curious.

Josh Glaser 55:13

Yeah.

Kyle Bowman 55:14

What's going on right now? Because I guarantee that if you take the time to review your day or your week or maybe even your month, you'll go, "Oh, like, here are some things that have happened, and I don't realize that, the way that they have impacted me."

Josh Glaser 55:33

Hmm.

Kyle Bowman 55:33

I say that's a first step, and you can do that on your own. You can do that with a ReGain coach.

Josh Glaser 55:41

Yeah.

Kyle Bowman 55:41

Or a trusted friend where you can- Just have someone who is willing to also be curious with you.

Josh Glaser 55:49

Yeah. And I would, I would make a, a plug for some type of, uh, help with that. I think so often, like what we've... Especially if it's a new, if it's, if you're new to this journey, I think finding someone who can help you to ask the kinds of question, like, "What's going on for me under the surface?" Because what's normal for us often is we've in- you know, spent years and years and years growing up never looking under the hood, not even knowing where the hood is. And so I, I... That's why I, I'm happy to promote Regen coaches, to say, "These people are gonna be just great at asking you some good questions and listening along and helping you discover." They're not about forcing something on you as much as- Mm-hmm helping to create some space to explore, like, what might be going on there for you. Um, yeah. I'm gonna, I'm gonna give a plug later for our groups too, our upcoming, uh, retreats. But Greg, so what, what would you add? Like, somebody who's wrestling with just kind of a, a level of shame around the same-sex attraction, so the idea of having a posture of kindness or curiosity just feels out of reach or, or hard to, hard to stomach.

Greg Ruhland 56:50

Yeah. I would... Community is huge. Um, so having a place, um, where you can talk about it and be loved and accepted for who you are. Um, I think of the Awaken group that I lead. Uh, we have guys that are s- struggling with same-sex arousal patterns, and then we have guys who are straight. And I love it when we get a point, to the point in the group where they all of a sudden all realize, like, "Hey."

Josh Glaser 57:18

Mm.

Greg Ruhland 57:18

We're struggling with the same thing."

Josh Glaser 57:20

Yes. Mm-hmm.

Greg Ruhland 57:21

Uh, the light bulbs go on. Yeah. Like, "Oh, yeah, we, we are both misusing our sexuality to manage our emotions, and we need to learn how to manage our emotions differently." Uh, and, and we need community for that. Yeah. Like, we learn, we learn how to manage, uh, often emotions through synchronization and attunement.

Josh Glaser 57:46

Mm.

Greg Ruhland 57:47

Like, so we can't do it alone.

Josh Glaser 57:48

Mm-hmm.

Greg Ruhland 57:49

Uh, but it also makes me really thankful for the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Josh Glaser 57:55

Mm.

Greg Ruhland 57:56

Like, got a built-in 24/7 synchronization buddy.

Josh Glaser 58:02

Mm.

Greg Ruhland 58:03

Um, it's an amazing gift. Yeah. Um, but, uh, just practically too, I, like in my own story, like, I had two really good friends-

Josh Glaser 58:13

Mm

Greg Ruhland 58:14

at different seasons of my life who were both straight, and being able to share some of my struggle with them and being, just to be able to be in relationship, to be accepted by them, to socialize with them, that was huge- Yeah at different parts of my journey. Um, to be able to Be treated like one of the guys, um, even though there was this part of me that didn't feel like one of the guys.

Josh Glaser 58:42

Mm.

Greg Ruhland 58:42

Um-

Josh Glaser 58:44

Yeah.

Greg Ruhland 58:44

So yeah, I'd pray for like... If... I'd pray for that like crazy. If, like, if I'm talking to a, a young guy struggling, uh, I'd be like, "Oh yeah, pray for a good friend. Find a community-

Kyle Bowman 58:59

Mm-hmm

Greg Ruhland 58:59

and then find your expert. Find your experts who-

Kyle Bowman 59:02

Mm

Greg Ruhland 59:02

have the same values you do, like, man, change is possible. Uh, um, it's not guaranteed, but it is in the deck of cards. And find somebody who will help you just stay faithful to your journey wherever it might go."

Josh Glaser 59:19

Yeah, love that. I love that, all that. Holy Spirit, the importance of-

Greg Ruhland 59:23

Mm-hmm

Josh Glaser 59:24

uh, brothers, sisters, people who can be with you on, on your journey, the power of the words me too. Um, I think one of the reasons I've got such a passion for this is because when I first came to Regeneration 20- Eight, nine years ago, it was a ministry that, that primarily walked with men and women experiencing unwanted same-sex attractions, and they had kind of this side, little ministry for men who experienced sexual addictions of other kinds, which is where I came in. But over the years, the, the ministry decided and found, like, wait a minute, these, these are not different groups. Mm-hmm. Like, like to separate- Mm men who experience, you know, heterosexual sexual addictions from those who experience homosexual sexual addictions, or women who experience y- same-sex attractions from women who experience other sex att- Like, to separate us that way, on, on one level, it, it's always nice to kind of connect with others who can, you know, actually understand the full scope of what you're dealing with. Uh, but, but there's something really powerful about recognizing, like, when we get to the place underneath, like, what's, what are the, what's the deepest desires? Mm. What are the deepest fears? What are the deepest wounds? Like, that's the ground you're talking about, where like, oh my gosh, like, I connect to that. And the man I described earlier holding me, and I, uh, I'm moved by this, but the man who holding me as I felt such shame and remorse about my own sin, his story was a, was... He's a guy who's wrestled with same-sex attraction and found freedom from it. And, um, and to find in him just this beautiful kindred spirit who could relate with me meant the world to me, and I... S- and so to s- to separate this, you know, things out, it feels so, um, counter-kingdom to me.

Kyle Bowman 1:01:15

Yeah.

Josh Glaser 1:01:16

Counter-Jesus to me. Mm-hmm. Um, so yeah, you guys are awesome. Okay, one announcement, and then as I'm giving this announcement, I want you guys to think if you've got a final word for people, um, anything the Lord might put on your heart. So before we wrap, I wanna give m- two announcements. One, we've got, we've got two retreats coming up, one for men, one for women. The men's retreat is October 9th through 11th at Meadowkirk Retreat Center in Middleburg, Virginia. If you register before July 24th, so by the time this podcast drops, you're only gonna have a couple weeks, I think, but register before 20- July 24th for an early bird pricing. It's gonna be a super, super, uh, weekend.

Retreats, Final Hope, And Prayer

Josh Glaser 1:01:54

Uh, Greg and I will both be there, along with some other guys from our team. And, uh, it's just a beautiful time of fellowship with other men, where we're gonna go deep into our stories and invite Jesus in. And space is limited. We expect it to fill up quickly, so please register today. And then corresponding to that, we have a Sacred by Design women's retreat October 17th. It's a one-day retreat up in Allenbury- at Allenberry Resort Center in Boiling Springs, PA. Uh, it's a beautiful weekend to be recharged, refreshed, and to go deep with some other women. Uh, women only, and if you s- if you so desire to make it a longer experience, you can also, uh, opt in to spend the night at Allenberry, um, at, at, on your own or with your group that you come with. So, uh, you can find out both, uh, more information about both those, uh, in the show notes or on our website. Um- And we'd love to see you there. So with that in mind, any final word from either or both of you, just to anybody who's listening and wrestling, like the young man I mentioned in the beginning?

Kyle Bowman 1:02:48

Yeah, I would say, um, keep, just keep moving forward- Mm-hmm and know that God is for you, and there's a way in which he wants to meet you in this, and will you have your heart open to meet him in the way he wants to meet you?

Josh Glaser 1:03:04

Love it. Greg, any final word from you?

Greg Ruhland 1:03:08

I think hope. Mm. Like I just, I hope this podcast gives people struggling some hope.

Josh Glaser 1:03:16

Yeah. Yeah. Amen. Yes and amen. So Jesus, would you do that for everyone listening, and Lord, anybody who's, who's, uh, stuck around this long, um, Lord would you, would you affirm for them that you are tugging at the strings of their heart because you have something really, really good for them, and most especially, Lord, you have yourself-

Greg Ruhland 1:03:36

Mm

Josh Glaser 1:03:37

for them. And so Lord, would you, uh, would you bring them good friends, as Greg talked about? Would you bring them some experts around them- Yes who can help them uncover what's going on for them? And most especially, Lord, would you help them discover more deeply the presence of your Holy Spirit in them, for them, for their bodies, unafraid of all they're experiencing sexually. We love you, Lord. In Jesus' name, amen.

Greg Ruhland 1:04:04

Amen. Amen. Thanks, Josh.